by Chase Stallo
Sign of the Lap Times: Anaheim 1
Tuesday, January 8, 2013 | 10:10 AM
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PrintTake a deep dive inside the lap charts with this week's Sign of the Lap Times.
450SX Class
| Lap Rank | Finish | Best Lap | In Lap | Avg Lap Time | Rider |
| 1 | 2 | 55.849 | 3 | 56.869 | Trey Canard |
| 2 | 3 | 55.877 | 3 | 57.364 | Ryan Dungey |
| 3 | 7 | 55.934 | 3 | 57.809 | Justin Barcia |
| 4 | 1 | 55.974 | 3 | 56.812 | Davi Millsaps |
| 5 | 4 | 56.358 | 5 | 58.086 | Chad Reed |
| 6 |
16 | 56.591 | 7 | 58.727 | Ryan Villopoto |
| 7 | 5 | 57.319 | 7 | 58.057 | Jake Weimer |
| 8 |
18 | 57.462 | 3 | 59.970 | Broc Tickle |
| 9 | 8 | 57.481 | 9 | 58.609 | James Stewart |
| 10 | 6 | 57.510 | 4 | 58.245 | Andrew Short |
| 11 | 9 | 57.614 | 6 | 58.623 | Justin Brayton |
| 12 | 11 | 57.932 | 3 | 59.515 | Josh Grant |
| 13 | 13 | 58.134 | 11 | 59.494 | Kyle Chisholm |
| 14 | 10 | 58.220 | 7 | 59.143 | Kevin Windham |
| 15 | 14 | 58.374 | 9 | 59.999 | Weston Peick |
| 16 | 12 | 58.450 | 10 | 59.370 | Matt Goerke |
| 17 | 17 | 58.475 | 6 | 1:01.019 | Vince Friese |
| 18 | 15 | 58.710 | 5 | 1:00.558 | Matt Lemoine |
| 19 | 19 | 59.392 | 4 | 1:01.426 | Robert Kiniry |
| 20 | 20 | 59.379 | 2 | 59.398 | Mike Alessi |
450SX
- Trey Canard set the fastest lap in 450SX with a 55.849 on lap 3.
- Not a good night on the track or the lap charts for two-time defending 450SX champion Ryan Villopoto. He had six laps over the one-minute mark.
- Villopoto's first big crash caused trouble for Broc Tickle, who crashed into a Tuff Block that RV kicked onto the track. Tickle's first seven laps were all under the one-minute mark, but after the crash, all his laps on the final ten laps were over the one-minute mark.
- Dealing with a knee injury suffered in practice, James Stewart just tried to ride consistently. He averaged a 58.609 and only exceeded the one-minute mark on the final two laps.
- Kyle Chisholm, after dealing with an ankle injury during the off-season, got stronger as the race went along. He set the latest fast lap in 450SX with a 58.134 on lap 11.
- Jake Weimer, en route to a very quiet fifth, began the race with a string of nine straight laps in the 57-second range.
- Davi Millsaps and Trey Canard matched each other's pace the whole way. Each rode laps in the 55-56 second range until finally rising into the 57s on lap 14.
- Matt Lemoine tailed off down the stretch—going over the one-minute mark the last six laps—which may have been a byproduct of this being his first 450SX race.
- Bobby Kiniry was only able to break the one-minute lap mark three times in the opener (laps 4-6).
Comparisons:
Dungey vs. Barcia – Laps 10-15
After the season opener Ryan Dungey stated: “When I got to lap 10 I kind of had enough of the cat-and-mouse, hanging in fourth. I really wanted to make a push.” Dungey would tip-over in a corner on lap 16, but secured third when Barcia made a mistake of his own shortly after. Let’s compare the times from when Dungey began his push, and see if he made up any ground.
| Lap | Ryan Dungey |
Justin Barcia |
| 10 | 56.068 | 56.572 |
| 11 | 56.981 | 56.469 |
| 12 | 56.298 | 56.762 |
| 13 | 56.927 | 57.125 |
| 14 | 57.074 | 57.127 |
| 15 | 56.869 | 56.56 |
| Avg. | 56.702 | 56.769 |
As we can see from the lap chart above, Dungey made a push, but Barcia was able to withstand the onslaught.
Millsaps vs. Canard – Laps 17-20
Davi Millsaps and Trey Canard locked horns down the stretch, delivering one of the most exciting finishes in Anaheim 1 history. Let’s take a look how it played out during the final laps.
| Lap | Davi Millsaps | Trey Canard |
| 17 | 58.212 | 56.895 |
| 18 | 58.457 | 57.673 |
| 19 | 57.216 | 58.124 |
| 20 | 56.743 | 59.728 |
| Avg. | 57.657 | 58.105 |
Canard used a lap 17 sprint to gain almost two seconds on Millsaps. The two traded blows on the following laps, but costly mistakes from Canard on the final lap allowed Millsaps to reel him in, retake the lead and subsequently the win.
Check out the charge by Millsaps—he had not logged a lap in the 56s after lap 13, but he dug deep on lap 20 to go back into the 56 one last time. That helped him secure the win.
Millsaps (rear) and Canard (front) battled to the end at Anaheim.
Simon Cudby photo
250SX Class
| Lap Rank | Finish | Best Lap | In Lap | Avg Lap Time | Rider |
| 1 | 1 | 55.275 | 5 | 57.264 | Eli Tomac |
| 2 | 2 | 56.789 | 6 | 57.533 | Ken Roczen |
| 3 | 3 | 57.076 | 4 | 57.829 | Cole Seely |
| 4 | 4 | 57.082 | 3 | 58.299 | Jason Anderson |
| 5 |
14 | 57.196 | 7 | 58.951 | Blake Baggett |
| 6 | 5 | 57.254 | 5 | 58.792 | Malcolm Stewart |
| 7 |
7 | 57.362 | 15 | 58.507 | Zach Osborne |
| 8 | 6 | 57.438 | 4 | 58.588 | Ryan Sipes |
| 9 | 9 | 57.702 | 4 | 58.938 | Max Anstie |
| 10 | 11 | 57.790 | 5 | 59.218 | Kyle Cunningham |
| 11 | 8 | 57.995 | 4 | 58.867 | Tyla Rattray |
| 12 | 19 | 58.139 | 4 | 58.537 | Jake Canada |
| 13 | 15 | 58.267 | 2 | 59.786 | Travis Baker |
| 14 | 10 | 58.302 | 5 | 59.395 | Michael Leib |
| 15 | 12 | 58.370 | 4 | 59.560 | Christian Craig |
| 16 | 13 | 58.455 | 5 | 59.447 | Joey Savatgy |
| 17 | 18 | 59.063 | 5 | 1:01.485 | Jessy Nelson |
| 18 | 17 | 59.143 | 5 | 1:00.583 | Jean Ramos |
| 19 | 16 | 59.751 | 5 | 1:01.617 | Austin Politelli |
| 20 | 20 | DNF | DNF | DNF | Martin Davalos |
250SX
- Eli Tomac not only set the fastest lap in 250SX, he set the fastest lap of the entire night with a 55.275 on lap 5.
- Tomac also threw down two laps in the 55-second range—the only 250 rider to achieve the feat all night.
- Ken Roczen strung together six of seven laps in the 56-second range to begin the race. Meanwhile, Tomac put together seven sub 57-second laps the entire night.
- Of the riders that completed all 15 laps, only four failed to have a lap over the one-minute mark—Ken Roczen, Cole Seely, Ryan Sipes and Zach Osborne.
- After a poor start, Osborne charged from dead last to secure seventh in his GEICO Honda debut. He set a blistering pace down the stretch, throwing down two 57-second laps in the final three, including his fastest of the night—a 57.362—on lap 15.
- J-Star JDR KTM’s Joey Savatgy and Lucas Oil/Troy Lee Desgins Honda's were the only rookies to make the night show. The Georgia native was very consistent on the lap charts with 12 of 14 laps under one-minute.
Comparisons:
Stewart vs. Anderson vs. Seely – Laps 2-8
One of the better battles of the night took place in the early going between Malcolm Stewart (who held down third at the time), Cole Seely (fourth at the time) and Jason Anderson (fifth at the time). Stewart would eventually drop positions to both Seely and Anderson, but let’s dig a little deeper to see where he lost time.
| Lap | Malcolm Stewart | Cole Seely | Jason Anderson |
| 2 | 58.25 | 57.864 | 57.496 |
| 3 | 57.268 | 57.672 | 57.082 |
| 4 | 57.402 | 57.076 | 57.597 |
| 5 | 57.254 | 57.146 | 57.162 |
| 6 | 58.222 | 58.16 | 58.23 |
| 7 | 1.00.284 | 57.978 | 58.023 |
| 8 | 58.241 | 57.657 | 57.582 |
Tomac vs. Roczen – Laps 2-8
Eli Tomac set a scorching pace early, and managed to maintain it to the end, but let’s look at just how he opened such a big gap over Ken Roczen.
| Lap | Eli Tomac | Ken Roczen |
| 2 | 57.15 | 56.967 |
| 3 | 55.722 | 56.884 |
| 4 | 56.345 | 57.131 |
| 5 | 55.275 | 56.912 |
| 6 | 56.705 | 56.789 |
| 7 | 56.081 | 56.898 |
| 8 | 55.954 | 56.873 |
| Avg | 56.176 | 56.922 |
Tomac used two 55-second laps to pull away, but as you can see from the lap charts, K-Roc was setting quite the pace himself, and was not that far removed from Tomac. Consider it a case of Roczen going fast, but Tomac just going even faster. Lap 5 is where Tomac did real damage, going 55.2 while Roczen went 56.9.
Eli Tomac set the fastest lap of the night at Anaheim.
Simon Cudby photo
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Eli is a force, I hope he mixes it up on the 450s during the East rounds.
We know we know RV ans JS were in the pack blah blah...just thought I'd diffuse this crap before it starts.
Awesome race - Tomoc - Oh Boy! But lets not get too excited...many examples can be had of a lites rider turning faster laps...MC, RC, JS, RV, ET have all done it regularly - but looking at it now I suppose ET is in good company!
Lap times have been getting closer the last couple of years. Its amazing that 4 riders best laps times are all in the 55.8's and 55.9s. Several riders in the 450 class are doing the same combo's on the track. Starts are gonna play a bigger role in this years series. Most of the riders played nice at the season opener, but it will become more of a battlefield as the series continues.
How many more seasons do you think 450's will be used in SX? I think AX is still 250's and that is the new feeder system. Rider grumblings that the 450's are just too much for SX. Lap times that could be argued as equal between the 2 displacements. I see works 250F's in the future. 3-5 years tops before the mighty 450 says bye bye to SX.
I know none of you guys want to hear it but 250 smokers would make for the best racing! SX should be 250 cc max....let the riders and teams decide the engine strokes.
a healthy JS or an RV with a better start and Tomac would not have had the best time I bet
Misoheye ..... Not to take anything away from Tomac he was FAST!!!!
.Maybe the 350 thing will be the future. Roczen will be riding one at the east coast races.
STILL no word on RV or JS!! Come on RacerX get some info!!!
99% of all MX activity is amateur. Cheaper racing means more racing. 2-strokes are cheaper to buy @ own. Thus, 2-strokes = more racing. So, how did the 99% of us get sucked into this deal? It's killing the sport. Doesn't even benefit the mfrs (bike sales have dropped steadily ever since the 1st 4stroke sales surge to way below the previous average of the 2-stroke era). Let the 2-strokes compete evenly and let the chips fall. Are there any adults in charge? Or just guys who suck up the mfrs (short term) interests?
Ripdown - many people do not like the truth...
The 450 guys best try to maximize West Coast points. The inclusion of some of the fast 250 riders participating in East Coast races is obviously going to have a spoiler effect and rob valuable points. As RC would say, all these riders best "preparate".
The top 4 lap times were set on the 3rd lap, as they tried to sprint away, with only a tenth of a second separating them. Knowing that Reed, Stewart and Villopoto are more than capable of being right there with them, is going to make for some wonderful racing the rest of the year. IF JS and RV are not hurt, as we have not heard any news on them so far, having seven riders, who will be that close , we are in spectacular season from the "Sensational Seven" !!
Tomac having the fastest time of the night on a 250 seems like quite a feat. We all saw the top 250 riders put down similar laps times to the 450's indoors and out last year. We know E.T. is very talented, but I think one of the reasons for that, is it may be easier to ride a 250 than a 450.
Roczen needs to find that Comfort and Confidence in supercross, that he has outdoors to keep pressure on Eli. Kenny is more than capable of that, after all, look what he did on a 250 when full C&C at the Nations races.
Tomac's teammate, Osburne and the PC boys need to bring it the next couple weeks to avoid the west coast turning into a two man race...
@BillC--I would say there isnt anything wrong with them..No other site has said anything either.. Just a bad day at the races..
Yes impresive that Tomac made the fasest lap also impresive was Roczen was only about 1,5 seconds from Tomacs best time? Some were even asking if Tomac was at full speed? So we gootta git red of the if's and but's and take what happened. Till next week.
Another difference from last year for this first race, last year the 250's or most of them put the fastest laps in at the end of the race.
Yes I hope everyone makes it back for next week! We dont need the attrition to start again this year. Hope all make it through the season!
I'd like to see a chart of all 40 racers listed by time. Forget about the class. That's where the real sign of the lap times is. These days the 450 is probably more of a hindrance in SX. What if everyone were on a 250??
@BillC and @TheRealMofo -
Story in MXA yesterday (with pictures) had Villopoto riding a 40 mile road bike ride on the Pacific Coast Highway with a buch of industry types on Sunday (apparently Ratray was there, too).
That should answer at least one question.
I think Tomac had the fastest time because the track was smooth, it got pretty rutted for the 450's.
IM not sure what you mean about "rider grumblings" there are two guys right now tomac and wilson who would give their left nut to be on the 450 so where exactly are you getting your information? just because 450's scare you dont mean you gotta come on here and spew your nonsense about how they should get rid of them every pro in the 450 and probably 250 class would disagree with you stick to your 250 It doesnt make you any less of a man...to each is own
@jeramey..Before you get all high and mighty...Yes, Eli and Wilson want to move up a class and it so happens to be 450's, that has nothing to do with which bike is better for SX. It's about moving to the premier class. Watch the race again, one rider basically said the new 450's, because they are so light and fast makes them very hard to race SX. 450 scare me? That is truly nonsense. Put some thought into your response, it only makes you look stupid. Soooooo stupid. Being a Honda guy I thought you would be ok. I guess just because you ride red it doesn't mean much between the head.
Alessi with the ohlins package is toast for the season .. Even with a hole-shot best finnish will - well ?? Maybe make 4th place.. 7th overall for the series.. I talked to him he said he was not feelin it on Saturday just felt flat Throw the finger in well .....Bike needs a lot of sorting !! He said he will have something better come Phoenix..........I'll talk to him then ........
Just saw that about RV so at least he looks to be fine. JS was getting an MRI last I heard so they must not be letting out the info.
@phoenix1..What's your take on 450's in SX? One high profile rider said 450's are getting to be a handful in SX. I love my 450, just seems the writing is on the wall so to speak. If SX goes 250 for the premier class, wonder how long before MX follows.
@misoheye you need to go check your facts barcia,tomac and wilson have all said they have to over ride the 250 someone asked chad if he would ever consider racing a 2502stroke again or would he rather have his 450 and he laughed and said there wasnt even a comparison so put the weed down bro you're high
@BillC,, you should follow these guys on Twitter. You usually get the latest info. RV is fine, and it sounds like JS maybe racing this week also, but not for sure. He hasnt said anything about his knee, just the football game last night.
OK sounds like an ACL for JS.....That SUCKS!!!
You guys beloved 2strokes would have never been able to seat bounce that quad so I really dont get were people come up with this better racing idea
mxmofo1 I may have to do that. Never been on Twitter.
@BillC,, Yep,, its good info..
@billc those are the last two you are gonna get info on off twitter RV's doesnt even appear to be ran by him and all you will ever get from stewart is what he's watching on tv or what he's having for dinner he's so secretive about anything that we as fans find important I could give a rats ass what hes watching on tv
follow steve mathes he likes to spill the beans on stuff he's asked not to
2 stroke guys..... maybe they'll bring back by 1940 Fords too...as much as you THINK their as good or better in reality right now a 450 will crush a 250 smoker or someone would be on one.....I do wish they would let them in the '250' class where they belong though....looked to me like some guys can ride the wheels off the 4fitys and they (once again) are not goin away no matter how much you dream ...though the FIM will probably try to make 350 a limit at some point....@phenix...it ain't the Ohlins...
@jeramey,, Hmmmm,, JS has always sent out wether he's riding or not.. Anyway, its better than nothing.. Plus, there is alot more info on there than that..
yeah i still follow him but he's usually real hush hush about it till like the day before but I guess what I meant is dont expect a monday evening update from him you be lucky to have one by the next friday night
Yeah I don't understand how a 2 smoke is going to provide better racing. I do think the 450 is a little overkill and the sport, in the end, would be better going to 1 displacement at the professional level. The past Supercross and Outdoors seasons have proved the 250 can go as fast as the 450 with the proper rider. You won't find a guy out there racing his 250 against the 450s because he won't want to give up his start.
The EPA hates motocross and I remember the sport getting a lot of heat 10-15 years ago and I think that was one of the big driving factors to go 4 strokes. So save the hate mail for the EPA... Lord knows they deserve it.
we all know Havoc7 will do the last minute 'prince' style 'announcement' on the knee friday..hopefully hes ok and justs get back out their and backs up the 'should of won' comments..... the rest of the riders and most of the fans are waiting to see it.
^^^^^
2 strokes are lighter, more nimble and harder to ride fast. When you screw up you can't simply recover and clear the next section with a simply blip of a 450 throttle. If you mess up you've got to recover your rythm which usually leaves an opening for the guy behind you to pass. They also start really good after a crash....
they eve said that the track builders did not build that for the to quad but it made for some great racing when they did it
I wish they had not taken that lip away that windham was wheelie tapping over that sand wall that would have made for even better racing
Pingree is betting that JS tore his ACL, and is done for the season.. (Twitter)
Today's 4 strokes are much better performing motorcycles than 2 strokes irregardless of peoples' preferences. I own a 2 stroke and riding one against 450's at that level is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. It's called evolution, as with everything things get better and more expensive and ultimately racing is about performance. 4 strokes outperform 2 strokes in ride-ability, reliability, and the riders' fitness level. Before you jump on the reliability thing, that's pending you actually maintain your bike properly! I've never had a stock or mod 4 stroke blow up or need to be rebuilt nearly as often as a strung out 2 stroke.
Here is a list of all the riders combined, sorted by best lap. It's interesting to see how many 250 riders bested the 450 riders.
Class Best Lap In Lap Avg Lap Time Rider
250 55.275 5 57.264 Eli Tomac
450 55.849 3 56.869 Trey Canard
450 55.877 3 57.364 Ryan Dungey
450 55.934 3 57.809 Justin Barcia
450 55.974 3 56.812 Davi Millsaps
450 56.358 5 58.086 Chad Reed
450 56.591 7 58.727 Ryan Villopoto
250 56.789 6 57.533 Ken Roczen
250 57.076 4 57.829 Cole Seely
250 57.082 3 58.299 Jason Anderson
250 57.196 7 58.951 Blake Baggett
250 57.254 5 58.792 Malcolm Stewart
450 57.319 7 58.057 Jake Weimer
250 57.362 15 58.507 Zach Osborne
250 57.438 4 58.588 Ryan Sipes
450 57.462 3 59.97 Broc Tickle
450 57.481 9 58.609 James Stewart
450 57.51 4 58.245 Andrew Short
450 57.614 6 58.623 Justin Brayton
250 57.702 4 58.938 Max Anstie
250 57.79 5 59.218 Kyle Cunningham
450 57.932 3 59.515 Josh Grant
250 57.995 4 58.867 Tyla Rattray
450 58.134 11 59.494 Kyle Chisholm
250 58.139 4 58.537 Jake Canada
450 58.22 7 59.143 Kevin Windham
250 58.267 2 59.786 Travis Baker
250 58.302 5 59.395 Michael Leib
250 58.37 4 59.56 Christian Craig
450 58.374 9 59.999 Weston Peick
450 58.45 10 59.37 Matt Goerke
250 58.455 5 59.447 Joey Savatgy
450 58.475 6 01:01.0 Vince Friese
450 58.71 5 01:00.6 Matt Lemoine
250 59.063 5 01:01.5 Jessy Nelson
250 59.143 5 01:00.6 Jean Ramos
450 59.379 2 59.398 Mike Alessi
450 59.392 4 01:01.4 Robert Kiniry
250 59.751 5 01:01.6 Austin Politelli
250 DNF DNF DNF Martin Davalos
Tonewall
one of your biggest fans but you're not being logical......a 250 two stoke will eat a 250 four stroke ....what makes you think a 450 two stroke wouldn't do the same?
I bet KTM could tweak it's current "bullet proof" 300 smoker and it would be more than competetive. Point of this debate was the 250f's putting up similar lap times and the relevance of the 450 in SX. perhaps the lites bikes are just as quick because they're easier to ride in a stadium and you don't need the power of the 450. Thus leading me to believe the 250 smoker would be the best option.
and for all you doubters ...Jeramy included....Youtube some SX racing from the 90's....bar to bar all the time with multiple passes.
@ Jeramy....your point about not bbeing able to seat bounce the quad is my exact point. 2 Strokes are harder to ride fast....if you screw up the corner you have to adjust.....right now everyone does everything the same and it's follow the leader.
When's the last time any of you have ridden a well tuned pre-mix bike anyway. Bet half of you haven't since your 80cc mini-bike.
@jerarmey...You're so stupid you thought I was talking about a 2-stroke didn't you? I may be stoned but in a couple of hours I won't be and you'll still be stupid. Hell, you're dumber than me right now.
What you guys arent taking into consideration is the fact that eli could have ran that lap time on a 450 with less effort and probably put down an even faster one
@welker
Kroc ONLY 1.5 seconds slower than ET? 1.5 seconds a lap is huge, especially between the 2 top guys.
The article says RD had a successful push starting on lap ten then refers to data showing he gets slower from lap 10 to 15. Maybe Racer X needs to hire a statistician.
@ Taurkon, that is a good list and also back in the day the 125 were also the fastest class of the day also! Then also we had an advantage if we dsd not have the throttle wide open the bikes did not go! That was funny to me LOL, but true!
@ Singletrack Go to http://www.supercrossonline.com
Then click on results there is only 1 so far anaheim then scroll over to event click get results then select which class you want... Class results not points !! It will open a spread sheet if you dont want to print it open up another window and do the same thing you can compare ...ENJOY
@ripdown about a year and a half I do plan on getting one again just to have fun with ill never give up my 450 though im hoping in the next year or so to pick up an 06-07 cr i had a 2000 cr and the suspension was horrible the motor was a beast though
my point was if you asked a 100 pro's what bike they'd prefer atleast 90 would take the 450
@Ripdown,, Thats because the tracks were tougher and had more lines, especially in the '80's. If everyone can do 99% of the jumps, its harder to pass, and having a smooth track does not help either..
Jeramy.....you're showing your age. No doubt Reed wouldn't give up his 450.....he's also worth 60 mil and doesn't have to buy his bikes. You're obviously too young to know what one is but I'd love to send you out on a fresh KX 500 and then get your opinion on which is faster? had they kept developing the 2 stroke it would be a better bike than the 450. Would love to see KTM make a big bore 2stroke mx'r.
@
Misoheye no i knew what you were talking about and I was telling you that you are wrong the current pro's are quite happy with the 450
Retardcross said "Today's 4 strokes are much better performing motorcycles than 2 strokes irregardless of peoples' preferences....."
True, but I'd suggest you are missing a few things.
First, aside from KTM and a few Euro boutique companies, there has been ZERO invested in moving two stroke technology forward. Had the Japanese invested the same dollars in two strokes that they have in 4 strokes, the two strokes would look very different today. We've already see 2 stroke technology brought back successfully in snow sleds.
Second, there is no reason why we need FASTER bikes. There are so many other areas that there could be focus on to make the sport exciting and challenging. Heck, NASCAR, Indy, Formula... they all have restrictions that keep the drivers safe and speeds within reason, even though it's possible to derive much more hp from the engines. If technology and classes had remained as 125's & 250's, perhaps we would have seen:
1. More emphasis on tack designs
2. Bike suspension and handling (2013 and we finally see air shocks and forks go main stream)
3. More powerful 2T's. (KTM 250sx = 50hp) No doubt we could see 55 hp 2T's with more R&D
As far as costs, it IS more expensive to maintain a high performance 4 stroke according to Mitch Payton. You're welcome to challenge him.
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/MX-EDUCATION-MAKE-YOUR-FOURSTROKE-FASTER-WITH-THE-7325.aspx
@ Ripdown Ya you are right but we had a thing called pre jump to safe time kinda like the scub, ya had to bounce your bike befre you got to the top of the jjump then get on the ground faster! Then go to the mid and late 80's the tracks were accually kinda dangerous.
@old geezer why do you morons always bring up the 500 2stroke? do you really think that retarded bike could be raced on todays SX tracks? no they could not nor would anyone want to ride something with such an unsuspecting hit
Sorry Jeramy......missed your post while I was writing the last one.
No doubt the pro's would choose the 450 if they have the option, take theoption away and give them a choice between the 250's and I wonder what they would pick.
Please don't hate the 2stroke causet he suspension on your 2000 CR was no good...haha. That's obvious compared to todays machines. If you get a chance.....throw your leg over a new SX 250.....you'll be smiling for days.
I'm out of here I dont know how I always get sucked into these arguments I'll keep buying and riding the current 450's and you old guys keep dreaming of the day that the 2 stroke comes back and replaces it I bet most of you dont live long enough to see that it never happens
im all honda so when I find a good deal on an 06 or 07 the first thing im gonna do is drop the suspension off at RG3 im sure those orange bikes are nice but I ride red
@ Taurkon......You don't need to prove anything to me there because I agree. 99.9% of people aren't riding works PC 250F's that have to be rebuilt every weekend neither, I was referring to all of "us" who ride and race for fun and actually pay for our stuff. My reasonably mod YZ250F that I could do 20 hours on a top end would eat my strung out 125's and 250's that had to get a fresh ring or piston/ring every 8 hours.
Ya lets bring back the 500cc 2 stroke and she who is really a man! I f you have never rode or even better raced one you have not yet lived! Yes it was Tom Webb when he worked at Dirt Rider Mag that he listed the 10 things you should do and he listed that at 4th I think maybe he shold tell us. Gee I do miss my very trick YZ 490 that was better than the Hondas I worked on. No it would not have passed AMA teck inspection either!
@jeramey,, RG3 does suspension?? How does he find the time to do that and be a QB?? hahaha,, just kidding...
@ Retardcross you are right I did ride a couple of 4 bangers and I could not get used to them so I guess I am just an old fart? I did race a highly modified 500cc BSA Victor a few times and that was in 74 or 75 and it was pretty neat evreytime it hit you launched foward 20 foot! Then ya got used to it and could go pretty fast, The only problem was you has to remember to coast of the top of the jumps or it would get ya!
Retardcross, the main point here is that if privateers are struggling to race their 250's competitively, that only hurts the sport.
Let me put it another way... Does anyone believe that MX/SX is more popular today with spectators due to the introduction of the 4 stroke to MX/SX? I don't for a second.
@jeramey...I know you'll be back....The 450's are awesome for sure. History has shown that it's not up to the rider to make these decisions. NOBODY wanted 4-strokes at first. It's funny you bring up the 500's being obsolete in SX. Hmmm, 500, 250, 125, 80.....450,350,250,150..... Does this make any bells go off? Or is your superior young brain not close enough to death to make sense off it? Just having fun so don't take this too serious.
@ Taurkon, you ar 100% correct, it is the rac ing that counts! One of my frinds quit racing go carts because they wanted to go all 4 stroke also?????
@ Welker...I never addressed you but that's cool ha.
@ Taurkon....It's hard to say with the spectator thing, the level of racing is much higher than when people were on 2 strokes so theoretically it should make it more entertaining. Then again if they were on 2 strokes they'd be going slower but the racing may be tighter and that's good as well. That has more to do with track design though in my opinion.
dude the technology of these 450's smooth powerbands are not even comparable to a cr or kx 500 Ive seen videos of guys struggling to ride those in flat fields so I can only imagine trying to handle it in a rythm section but like i said earlier to each is own I'm not against 2 strokes I'm just a realist and no that they the MFG's are never gonna do a 180 and abandon the 4 stroke and go back to 2 like some are hopefull of my 450 believe it or not has taught me to be a better rider and I think I could probably rip the shit out of a 250 2 stroke now we'll see but my 450 has gotten me out of more trouble than it has gotten me into just to have the torque to get that extra push over a jump if you think you might come up short and especially big jumps right out of turns ..........Braaaap!
know* not no racer x needs an edit feature
^^^^^
buddy you're making all my points for me...haha. Everyone can go fast on a 4 stroke. And the MFG's will soon have to go back to the two strokes if they want to keep selling bikes to anyone who isn't either rich or a race team. Also, keep in mind....a lot of that same four stroke power smoothing technology could be applied to the two strokes if they hadn't abandoned them....for a lot less money too.
PS....twostrokes replaced 4 strokes long ago.....they may well do it again.
That was said about the open class pre 1993
Good work Chase !
How do you get the columns to line up ? Im using excel.
JimM
Pala374
Qualifying Times (Clear Track)
1 Stewart 55.401
2 Villopoto 55.551
3 Millsaps 55.917
4 Dungey 55.925
5 Canard 55.945
6 Barcia 56.359
JimM
Pala374
Just cut and paste the tables into Excel one after another and modify them to how you see fit.
Closed-loop, direct-injection, EPV (electronic power-valve) Two-strokes exist now. The economy is what's holding back the introduction of this technology.
The 4 v 2 debate can go on forever, but there still remains the constant: Size being equal, there is no (horsepower) comparison. Weight still being a factor in MX / SX racing, the two-strokes prevail again.
How many injuries can one hypothosize would be avoided with the two-strokes lesser flywheel effect and reduced gyroscopic forces?
The science of the debate favors the two stroke. The only thing(s) four strokes brings to the table are the enviromental issue and ridability. Closed-course competition makes issue one a moot point and I'd give the other guy a sweet powerband to have him covered by ten horses virtually every time.
Also, breaking a two stroke versus four stroke in the desert / track / trail is the difference between opening her up and trying a repair or loading up and going home. That might be all the difference in the world.
JS just tweeted he would see us on Saturday!!!! WTF - hope that means he is going to ride!!
Did anyone else even notice or care that Akira Narita did not even qualify for the main event?
No we didn't or don't...
Just kidding...I posted in the article that mentioned his racing at Anaheim that he would be lucky to qualify...anyone could have seen that one coming...
@Jeramy try not to spend too much of your retirement fund on that 4T my man...
ha I wont I just got my very first brand new bike and I will probably have it for the next 5-6 years its the 13' honda 450 they are expensive but it is some much nicer than my 06' crf450r and compared to my 2000 cr250 would be like comparing a go-kart to a cadilac
Husky will have DI 2 strokes in 2014
Holy christ. can we stop this 2 st v 4 st crap!
- NZ nationals, the 250 2 st is legal in our 250 class. First meeting some of the top guys believed they would kill the 4st guys, had PC motors imported the whole nine yards. 2nd meeting ALL had switched back to 4 st after getting smoked. These were top, skilled guys.
- IF this analogy were about cars I would say this....why can't we all go back to horse and cart, it's cheaper, the racing is closer and less people are getting injured...I mean WTF people.
- 4st engines (450 especially) when treated right and maintained are rock solid. PRO ACTIVE maitnenance is the key. NOT reactive like you guys do with 2 strokes!
PREVENT the failure, don't ride it in to the gorund and then complain at the cost. If you change the piston at 60-100 hours (450) it will last for ever!
And don't even start on "the pro's dont want 450's" WTF!!!!!!
The AMA tried that a few years ago and dropped it quicker than a hot potato. One racer x pundit hearing one offhand comment from a rider and suddenly it's fact!
Come on.
JimboMX374: Too bad for RV and JS they don't run the moto's on a clear track.....
The most impressive thing on this whole chart (IMO) is that Millsaps average lap time (56.812), is less than a second slower than his fastest lap time (55.974). THAT, is impressive!
The ladies running out there in their prius, volts and golf-cart-mode bimmers aren't going to allow further development of the 2 cycle motor. In their eyes we are evil destroying the earth by accelerated erosion, dumping oil into the air (because of the premix), global warming and all that other crap. Getting rid of the 2-strokes as much as we have was a good way to get them off our backs.
I've got a soft spot in my heart as much as the next guy that ever raced one but they aren't coming back. Not any time soon at least.
Gotta agree with crfkiwi, I've been riding 4 strokes for nearly the last ten years, I change the oil like i'm supposed, haven't had any problems. Got my top end done, the guy said he could tell change my oil. If you want to ride a two stroke, buy a 2 stroke. I've had two crf450's, 05 and 09. before that i had (all 2 smokers) 02 cr 250, 2 yz 125s, 96 rm125, 93 or 94 rm 125, 92 cr 80. one of my rm 125 blew a crank, had to split the case, and buy a new crank. I have never had any problems with my four strokes. Granted exhaust cost more, but they dont stick out so much every time you wreck they get a big dent. And lets say 4 strokes never came back to mx, chances are 2 strokes would cost alot more to purchase. I have much more fun on 450. That's my preferance. I don't understand why most 2 stroke guys hate on 4 strokes. is it they know the 4 strokes are better??? I've ridden both, and the 4 strokes are better, thats why you don't see guys racing 2 strokes anymore at the pro level. I think 2 strokes guys are just sick of getting roosted by 450's lol. and those who say a 450 is easy to ride and you can be lazy, you can somewhat, but it also takes more strength to ride a 450 than a 250. Anyway more power to you whatever you want to ride, but the two stroke isn't coming back anytime soon.