Ask Ping!
Friday, December 21, 2012 | 9:25 AM
ODI dates back to the 1980’s as the leader in grip manufacturing. Focusing primarily on the bmx and mountain bike industries through the 90’s and early 2000’s, ODI re-entered the motocross scene when they developed the patented lock-on grip system that eliminates wire and glue. Continuing to advance the way riders hold on to their bikes, ODI has worked closely with the teams they support such as Troy Lee Designs to create the product that is now being used by some of the top teams in the industry.
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PrintHey Ping,
I've always been an MX/SX fan. My parents never let me ride as a kid and I got involved in stick and ball sports during my teen years and college and I've been a born-again fan since graduating a few years ago. It's taken me awhile to get caught back up but all things Racer X and the related podcasts have really helped.
Here's my question: I'm an average sized six foot 190lb athletic dude. A say average referring to non-MXers (First time I saw Nick Wey and James Stewart in the pits I almost laughed because these dudes are munchkins). I've really wanted to get a bike but I'm not sure whether I should get a 250 or 450. I don't want to get in over my head with a 450 but I don't want to look like Mookie on a 250 either. What would you say is the smartest thing to do? Is a 250 going to be THAT under powered for a novice? Would a 450 fly out of my hands? Whatever you say I'll do. After all, you did say the 2013 Honda 450 blows right out of the gate.
All the way from the 805 (T.O.),
Kenneth
That’s actually a toy truck James is standing next to.
Congrats on the college education. In today’s economy all you need are that degree and about $3.50 and you can get yourself a latte at Starbucks. Am I right? Seriously, am I? I don’t have a degree. I’ll tell you what else I don’t have and that is “little man” syndrome. After all, you laughed at James and Nick and yet I am shorter than both of those guys. But I’m sure you knew that when you wrote this nasty letter, you sunnovabitch. Hey, I’m just kidding I’m not angry about that at all. After all, most motocross guys look more like horse jockeys than linebackers. That’s just a fact.
So you’re not sure what the right bike is for a tall drink of water like yourself. A 450 is a lot of motor for a guy just getting started, even if he is tall enough to dunk a basketball. But 190 lbs is pushing the weight range for a 250F. If you are concerned that a 250 won’t have enough balls for six foot Adonis like yourself you can always pick up a KTM 350. After all, they built that motorcycle to fill a niche and it is a great bike. Honestly I think you would be just fine on a 250 also.
Oh, and I never said the Honda “blew.” It would be way more bike than you’d need for, like, ever.
PING
Dear Ping,
My question is simple but at the same time very complex. What can the industry do to get stronger? How can I help? Last year I attended 5 supercross races and 1 outdoor race. I also ride at local tracks pay my fees, race, and buy food at tracks and so on in order to support the industry. I purchased my staff bikes as well and sponsored one of them. I even built a free track directory in order to help tracks communicate to the riders so that they can get more business thus help prevent them from shutting down (MotocrossMatrix.com). I am trying to help but it seems as if the industry does not care? Tracks do not invest money into their facilities and the industry keeps getting smaller so it seems. Is there a solution?
Terry
Mount Dora, FL
I might draw this on a beach in Maui.
I’m moved by your passion and dedication for the sport. Most people are only concerned with what they can get from the industry, not what they can do to help it. You are a rare breed in this world of narcissistic me-monsters and I commend you. Here’s what you can do. Send me money. It sounds like you are well-off and I could use some extra cash, frankly, especially around Christmas time. How will this help the industry? Well, you have to start somewhere. Pay it forward, the man in the mirror, etc, etc. Look, just send me some cash, bro. I’ll spend some of it on motocross related products, I promise. There’s motocross stuff on Hawaii, right?
PING
Hey Ping –
At my kid’s school they have this “sport” called cup stacking. You know, these little kids that can stack up cups real fast and move them around like Criss Angel on Mindfreak (yes, that’s how he spells Criss). Is this even a legitimate sport? I thought my kid jumping a three-foot double on his PW50 was impressive, but watching some googly-eyed kid with his shirt buttoned up to his neck do some laser-fast cup-stacking puts the PW jump to shame. I mean, I know there is a push to ban dodge ball and anything that might be perceived as violent or demoralizes character, but I am at a loss for understanding the challenge and rewards that come from cup stacking and how the hell it even started. Am I missing something here???
AGB
I stack cups because I can’t get a date. I can’t get a date because I stack cups.”- all cup stackers.
Leave it to some nerd with quick hands to turn a sad little game from his mom’s basement into a school “sport.” Of course it’s not legitimate. If you have to ask then you already know the answer. The problem with all the bleeding hearts forcing schools to nix dodge ball and replace it with co-ed hugging competitions is that we are turning out a generation of pansy-asses. Sorry, but stacking beverage containers for sport is only acceptable at a frat party when a pile of empties climb their way to the ceiling. Of course I was never in a fraternity so the only relatable experience I have is when Gatorade and water bottles pile up on the passenger side floorboard of my truck. I hope that special little snowflake just keeps using his quick hands to stack cups like a champ because with that as his only notable skill he’s going to need quick hands well into his twenties. Or forever.
PING
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Hey, Kenneth, get a 250cc 2-stroke. Ping, you should have known.
get a 450 you cant go wrong, it only goes as fast as you twist it and will keep yu smooth. It will last a long time at begginer speed and haul 200 pounds of man and gear easily. If you were 150 id say get a 250. any of these bikes will get you in trouble and a 250 stroke is a great choice if you are strapped for cash. just choose and go and if you don't like it sell and get something different.
hey guy I strongly urge you to get a 250 two stroke , ktm seem to be really good alot of guys on the trails are on them, and you also cant go wrong with a yamaha or really any other brand, I had a 250 f and switching back to two stroke was the best move I have ever made, You do not want to get caught up in the four stroke bs, seriously get a two stroke You will save alot of money and have less maintenance,and hassles, and not to mention have more fun, If you learn on that to it will make you a better all around rider to.I put like 3 grand into my 250f motor and i admit it was nice but the maintenance and money I spent got old quick , valves and top ends and changing oil every three hours and oil filters . the funny part was my 250 two stroke had more balls anyhow, also my 250f was a 2007 and my yz 250 now is an 2002 and seriously I love it more
yeah I do find it funny ping didnt mention the two stroke, I think everyone in the industry is like under contract to not talk about two strokes like there dead or something, the first rule of ama [fight club] is there is no two stroke,lol everyone is trying to switch back its the right move I really hope that guy listens the first time
I suggest to find a mentor to show you the ropes. Someone who has the experience and perhaps some bikes to scope out your true starting point. This ain't stick and ball sports. No slight intended.
Oh yeah, get a 250 2-stroke for sure. Perfect for a beginner. Nothing has a smoother power delivery than that. Unless money isn't a problem, just get what you can afford and have fun.
Always wondered where the pro's got extra wide grips because my hands are wider than a grip. Then I too realized these guys are munchkins. Fast ones though.
Answer get a 350 you cant go wrong !
250 2 stroke for sure. You will fit perfect on that thing. Your friend will love you for it. They will smell the intoxicating fumes when you pass them when their 4 stroke dies out in the desert 30 miles from the truck.
im at a loss for words.. you guys are focusing on the wrong question. Dodge ball is what we should be discussing! Ping hit the nail on the head about this generation. No more christmas trees, but a holiday tree. teacher have to other students self esteem classes in grade schoo. teachers cant mark the number wrong, or use red ink on test! only black pen with the number correct. and NO dodgeball??? our kids kids are going to turn out metrosexual little wimps that cant fend for themselves!!! oh brother we have issues to face, thank lord someone else besides me thinks this way. amen ping
Cup stacking? now thata could get to be a dangerous "sport?" what if Dixie gets invo,ve and starts spnsoring people? I thought buliding things whit plying cards would be safe? then I got a paper cut from a card and I said no way that hursts! So I went back to the real sport of Motocross where it is safe and I can waer goves and stuff to protect me! I also played dodgeball in school and gee it was so embarasing to go to the scool nurse when the ball hit ya! Oh and dont forget your feelings would get hurt also but hey we gotta make sure everyone gets a prize now for the little ego build!
PS: I have no Idea what I sjust typed and am not gonna check it!
Just waiting on A-ONE......
PPS: Hey dooood get a YZ 250 2Stroke and it will last pretty good and you will do just fine! I was able to get holeshots wth a 250 in the over Ex 30 class against the 500 cc bikes most of the time. Just take care of the bike and you will be fine.
PS: I was 6ft and 190 lbs also.
@mrmx...What is KTM's new slogan? I will take SX winners of the 90's for $500, Alex. This is Jeopardy?
Ping sure picked an interesting set of letters this week.
One more bit of advise for Kennet who wants to race, You will soon find out all of those stick and ball so called muscles wont work so well in MX but they will help. You will find out muscls that you did not know you had. At the end of the day you will feel much better about yoursef than standing there with only a stick to help you when someone throws a leather coated ball of twine at ya! Much more satifaction when your day of racing is over that that stick wil give ya!
"he’s going to need quick hands well into his twenties. Or forever". Classic!
Thanks for couple of laughs on my lunch break! Great column as usual
Welker said "I was able to get holeshots wth a 250 in the over Ex 30 class against the 500 cc bikes most of the time"
I smell bs. If you are racing expert 30 class, there are no 500 cc bikes on the gate. There are no 2 strokes either for that matter. Maybe you do unsanctioned backyard stuff in Mississippi. IDK
Ken. If you never rode any bike, start with 250 4 stroke. Run it for a season, learn some basics and get 250 2 stroke after. Fun to ride and less money and time for maintenance
@ Terry (about the US MX industry)
Maybe also more pro-am series, and more media exposure for those series, and imho an american mx website exclusively reserved for the US racing will help racers and teams to have more attention, no?
The Florida Winter and the Golden State Series were huge in the 80's I believe
Just my little opinion
Also, find yourself some deep sand, if available. Bike won't respond to your throttle as on hard pack and it doesn't hurt when you crash! Lol
On the serious side, if you have never ridden any motorcycle, a mx bike is not the place to start. You're just asking to get hurt. No experience = trail bike don't care how big or small you are. Imagine driving a 500 hp car with your permit, not a good idea.
Bluelint, 20+ yrs. ago some of us ( Welker included) rode 30+ classes. There were no competitive 4 strokes yet. I've pulled holies against 500 on 250's more than a few times (but still LOVE my CR500)
“Ready to Race” is much more than just a rather nice advertising slogan. KTM stands for high quality motorcycles.. Let the gate drop A-1 Baby !
Yes get a resonable trail bike and have fun .No sense and getting all waded up at the old age of 25. LOL ! You talk about small fry's you should go to a nascar race. Its the world of little people in a big world !
no prizes welker!! everybody needs to win to protect self esteem. competition is the devil
Grow a sack ...buy the 450 ...more is better than less and learn to pull the wire as far as your nads allow....used YZ 250'smokers and 05-8 RMZs cost about the same (2500-3000)...both are excellent....the RMZ will crush the Yamaha on the track....in the woods the smoker with a flywheel flat hauls and requires very little to maintain ....or mortgage your home and buy a 350 KTM .
mean kx no offense but I think your advise is backwards a little . Why for his first experience into riding do you sway him to a four stroke? when he runs into trouble with the motor he may end up selling it and taking a loss and never riding again, learning on a two stroke will make him a better rider , They force you to learn more about rpm's ,the feel for what the motor is doing, shifting , using the clutch,things like the right momentum for a hill, plus if it blows up it will only cost like $500 to fix, i could go on and on , honestly to he will be fine on a mx bike maybe if you really have never ridden I would say start on a 125 , mostly everyone that races has started on a two stroke 65's then 80's
tonewall, that may be true with prices and its because everyone is trying to get rid of there piece of shit four stroke and two strokes demand are going up , lets talk blown motors 4 stroke probably 3 grand to fix the two stroke will be in the $500 range , not to mention paying for valves to be checked once a year cost top end cost timing chain cost etc.. good luck with yours its probably bout to blow , doesnt sound like you probably keep up with yours. let me guess its taking more and more kicks to start lol, dont try to lead this first timer in wrong direction. we all made the mistake of switching to four strokes , it killed our pockets and our sport , stop being in denial we are all getting wiser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5G7s3dKu1I
as far as that track talk goes def depends on rider
pretty sure he is having more fun riding a two stroke
@reality...Exactly what reality are you in? I'm interested in how you come up with these numbers? Yes, a total rebuild on a 4-stroke will be more, but $3,000 vs. $500 is a little exaggerated. A roasted 2-stroke can cost a lot too. I know a very good mechanic that does valve clearances for $60+shims and that is less than a clutch that a good 2-stroke rider would have to get in the same time frame.
misoheye , just trying to help the man make the right decision, ok i give $2500 on rebuild of four stroke including labor , I dont think you can really argue that, and i give you $500 on the parts of two stroke and some labor but def under a grand all day and night ,its funny you make the roasted two stroke comment ping a little while back had a video and they rebuilt a two stroke motor and even he threw out the $500 price range.my point is they suck, oil isnt getting any cheaper think of the how much more often you have to change it in a four stroke plus filters,Im just saying does this first time rider want to be dealing with these extra costs?and maintainance time? it adds up you have a little point on the price of a clutch but your timeline is way off unless that guy runs motos everyday i could see a clutch going faster but likewise on a four stroke with all the other maintenance , think how that would add up
look bottom line there is just alot more that can go wrong with owning a four stroke and put you in a bad situation pocket wise [money], and two strokes money wise and time wise are less to maintain, I dont think you can argue that alot of people have started to figure this out t. IF the ama would let 250 two strokes in the lites class you would see a huge transformation of what bikes race that class ,Its dumb know its like a monopoly with the manufacturer teams and the little guys has no shot really at competing unless he is on a top team ,it didnt used to be as much that way back when two strokes ruled
@reality... I think part of the problem is there is an assumption that when a 4-stroke needs work it is everything from top to bottom (that is pricey) and all a 2-stroke ever needs is piston and rings. Everybody forgets about clutches, reeds, bottom end bearings and tires, these are all things for me that I needed more often for my 2-stroke. Anybody that can do proper 2-stroke maintenance should at least be able check valve clearance. I'm sorry to offend anyone, if you totally grenade any of the new 4-strokes,unless it is a full mod motor, it will most likely be your own fault by some action or inaction that you took. I don't favor either bike, what ever is the best is best, just don't buy into "it costs more to fix or ride" argument.
misoheye i agree on your checking your valve clearance and two stroke maintenance comment,you should be at least that capable, i did have a mod motor as well but I still think my argument holds water, if a four stroke blows up it does cost more, so i would say its definitely a bigger risk anyone takes to me,clutches go bad on four strokes to go trail riding one some tough trails and big hills your gonna be using the clutch,reeds are like $150 not that pricey, a timing chain is around $65. new valves are $115,pistons are a little more expensive,i mean shit lets just compare the exhaust price ,full pipe on a four stroke is probably like $700 now whats a 2 stroke $300 ?and two stroke pipes can alot of times can have the dents blown out and fixed not four strokes , it goes on and on .
Look four strokes can be fun to but more work and money , in my experience after switching back it was best decision i could've made , I wish I wouldve never went to four stroke to begin with but i went from a 125 to a 250f without riding a 250 two stroke ,thats when everyone started getting them, to me I am having way more fun on the 250 two stroke . a stock 250 f kinda sucks anyhow, you pretty much have to do some kind of mod to it, which is pricey, my two stroke has just a fmf pipe and silencer and v force reed and it rips!
Just came from yamaha. Total loss on my sons four stroke. Did the top end and timing chain and after three hours the machine grenades. Rite now with discounts I'm looking at $1500 and this parts list is not complete and doesn't include labor. This puts a big time halt on my sons winter training. Im guessing I will part the bike out. Looking for that 250-2smoker and calling it a day.
Down and out moto dad...
Oh...been running a 03kx125 since 04. One cylinder, 4 pistons and general maintenance. No where near what I've spent on my yzf. Truth
buchananhobo that sucks man ! I been making these points , anyone wouldve thought i was nuts going from my 07 4 stroke mod bike to an 02 250 two stroke , sounds dumb right ? but my initial loss will turn around and make sense in three years is what i told myself . ive had the two stroke for 3 months and i already see the light , its like a monkey is off my back !plus you will never ever get out of them all the aftermarket shit put into them , i dont care what anyone tells you
@reality.. Those 4-strokes exhausts are stupid expensive for sure. Never had a 250 4-stroke so all my experience is with a 450. Serious racing is expensive no matter what bike it is. I really think a 2-stroke is best for someone who wants a bike that will run forever, albeit poorly, on as little maintenance as possible. I think having to have diesel pushers with dual axle enclosed trailers and bikes with every bolt on do-dad that junior wants probably has more to do with the decline of amateur racing. It's more show than go now as it used to be more go than show. Racing is not as fun anymore because of this and people are just not racing as much.
wish you guys best of luck by the way , you arent the only ones either
@ BuchananHobo Hey Red Bud Hobo sounds like a good plan with the smoker !! Hey any realation to Box Car Willie !!! Lol ! Enjoy the Holiday's
well as a whole lets face it the culture of racing changed , alot has to do with the four stroke , not all of it but its a big contributor , i mean shit to go race for a day price wise is bullshit to , the track fee are unreal now .
4 STROKES have never changed I had a budy in 79-80 had a honda xr 250 thing was always broke down. Me I had the Suzuk 2 smoker.He was always riding one of my bikes.............
I raced only twice this year. With district card, ama card, gate fees and sign up was around $200. Then add in all the expense to get there and you might as well figure $150 per rider per race minimum not including anything needed for the bike. Insane. Who has an extra $750-$1000 a month to spend on racing. Wish I did.
Don't forget transponders. I have to have the same transponder the pros use.
You guys are a bunch of two stroke studs!!! Will you please follow me to the other comments section and help next time I say two strokes rock!!? Last time I got eggs thrown on me. You guys could help me win the debate easy!
Amen two stroke lovers!!!! I'm finally smiling people are seeing the light
By the way, anyone that buys a pipe for a 450 either has small mans complex or is an idiot. Jeff Alessi, mr. Dead last, could show up at ANY race and lap any local pro in the world on a STOCK 450. Probably stock 250.. Even though he gets 20th in supercross, the kid is still ungodly fast in reality.
I'm just saying a 450 is so fast already a pipe is a waste of money. Ricky Carmichael can't hold a 450 wide Open..
Interstingly I remember Carmichael saying that during testing, his lap times were identical from 450 to 250 two stroke but he choose a 450 for the holeshot factor.
Mishoeye I like where your coming from, I had you pegged for a liberal sap last week, but your gaining all my confidence back in your posts
1st bike ever 2000 cr250
2nd 2006 crf450r
3rd 2007 crf450r as a back up
4th 2013 crf450r (love it)
I will never get off a 450 but I will more than likely pick up another CR one day hopefully an 06 or 07 just to have for fun In case you couldnt tell im all honda the cr would definately go stright to RG3 though I know the suspension on my 2000 was horrible
but back to 2 stroke vs 4 stroke he needs to add what kind of riding he intends on doing because that can play a major factor I had a hard time learning to hit jumps on my CR the powerband was so hard and so unpredictable when I got the 450 my riding skills increased greatly so i really have to disagree on the fact that it will be easier to learn on, will it make you a better rider if you can learn to ride it properly? absolutely
I think some of you die hard 2 stroke guys catch crap because some of you come across as if youve never even ridden one and if you havent than everything you are argueing is hear say that youve heard others say
If the guy plans on trail riding the two stroke can be more fun but if he plans on MX he may want to get a 4stroke
edit: "ridden one" meaning a 4stroke
@ reality
I own 250 two stroke myself. I always said that if you're a weekend warrior or local racer, two strokes are way to go. Spending all of that money on four strokes, unless you're national caliber expert or B class and Mx is your future or current career, is not a great idea. I totally agree with you that riding 2 stroke fast teaches you real Mx skills. Four strokes are EASY to ride. That's why my advice was to begin with 250f in deep sand. If he jumps on 250 2 stroke he'll hurt himself with that snappy throttle in less than a minute! One of my buds, who's way over 200 lbs tried our yz125 for the first time. He wheelied, unintentionally, in between two trees, hit a little bump, went air borne a little and bailed out. That was funny as hell, for us at least! Too bad my camera wasn't there. My point is: for a total beginner 250f, deep sand. After he'll learn some riding technics he should be ready for big bike. Besides, he won't kill that 250 f being a beginner
@ reality
I own 250 two stroke myself. I always said that if you're a weekend warrior or local racer, two strokes are way to go. Spending all of that money on four strokes, unless you're national caliber expert or B class and Mx is your future or current career, is not a great idea. I totally agree with you that riding 2 stroke fast teaches you real Mx skills. Four strokes are EASY to ride. That's why my advice was to begin with 250f in deep sand. If he jumps on 250 2 stroke he'll hurt himself with that snappy throttle in less than a minute! One of my buds, who's way over 200 lbs tried our yz125 for the first time. He wheelied, unintentionally, in between two trees, hit a little bump, went air borne a little and bailed out. That was funny as hell, for us at least! Too bad my camera wasn't there. My point is: for a total beginner 250f, deep sand. After he'll learn some riding technics he should be ready for big bike. Besides, he won't kill that 250 f being a beginner
@ reality
I own 250 two stroke myself. I always said that if you're a weekend warrior or local racer, two strokes are way to go. Spending all of that money on four strokes, unless you're national caliber expert or B class and Mx is your future or current career, is not a great idea. I totally agree with you that riding 2 stroke fast teaches you real Mx skills. Four strokes are EASY to ride. That's why my advice was to begin with 250f in deep sand. If he jumps on 250 2 stroke he'll hurt himself with that snappy throttle in less than a minute! One of my buds, who's way over 200 lbs tried our yz125 for the first time. He wheelied, unintentionally, in between two trees, hit a little bump, went air borne a little and bailed out. That was funny as hell, for us at least! Too bad my camera wasn't there. My point is: for a total beginner 250f, deep sand. After he'll learn some riding technics he should be ready for big bike. Besides, he won't kill that 250 f being a beginner
Wtf? Sorry dudes:D
I think the deep sand is kinda funny to say, but what if there is no sand where he lives,personally i think with the four stroke being so snappy could be pretty bad for a beginner maybe , the two stroke isnt dangerous until powerband kicks in .If i were that guy id get the two stroke i listed about every reason why to
First of all Mr Reality ...a NORMAL rider with any sense at all that doesn't DEAD REV a 450 four stroke every second will get LONG life and plenty of reliability out of a 4 stroke especially a Yamaha....yeah two strokes are cheaper to repair but not as cheap as you think if your not using junk sleeves ,junk chinese or misc. pistons and cranks....OEM good stuff ain't cheap....ride what you want....but don't pretend that everybody wears out a good 450 ( on which 99.999999999 riders on this planet don't ..i repeat DON'T need a pipe) overnight it doesn't happen...the 250f on a good day makes 10 hp less than a 250 smoker and weighs 30 lbs more and they fail much easier especially if modded...no contest here. Buy a used old man ridden RMZ 450 AND a YZ250 and have the best of both worlds for 5,000 ......or add another 4 and get a new KTM. @buchananhobo...you need a new mechanic and that 03 kx has got to be wantin a rod.....
four strokes are easier to ride for sure but definitely dont necessarily make you a better rider , if anything they allow guys that are only so fast go faster which is more dangerous , look at the injuries the pros get know a days those dudes are already insanely fast and now the four stroke has them pushing the envelope to the point they can easily die . look at the amount of injuries know .I think its made it unsafe in a way . like someone said other week on a two stroke you knew coming out of a turn you either knew had the speed to make a jump or you backed off , not with four strokes and guys are getting hurt
I never owned a 450 but dont see how they are that much better and reliable? you may be in denial, from what ive seen in more recent times its all the four strokes ,
@mr.mx...no relation, but I do know some people down here in Texas that knew him. 2/4 idk, just tryin to keep dreams alive...sons lap times are .4 sec difference between yzf250 and his kx125 on most tracks. I figure I put him on the yz250, lap times comes up. He looks really busy on the 125. Speed comes easy on the 250f. It's a money thing for me, his tallent is larger than the wallet.
WOw.. triple post!! Havent seen one for awhile..
A two stroke HANDS DOWN will make your corner speed better and anyone that doesnt think that hasnt raced both.
The 450 is so forgiving.. any mistake can be covered up. Two strokes require more hand/foot coordination, more throttle control, and more aggressiveness to maintain speed. Havent you guys ever gotten on a 125 and felt like you were lighting the world on fire? A 450 is a lazy mans bike.. while popular for this decade, it wont last. They have come and gone before.. XR600s would have been winning supercross in 1980 if they were all that.
Again, the push for four strokes was out of NECESSITY to meet demands of pollution laws which may/may not have been enforced by the EPA. Oil companies knew this was coming 20 years ago, and tried to push 100:1 two stroke oils in effort to reduce the misconception that "seeing" smoke means bad for the environment.
Its amazing how little oil is really required to protect a two stroke, I said this before, but we have done testing at 500:1 premix, wide open for 10 hours.. no failure, parts look flawless. Mixing at 16:1 in the old days is retarded.. Oils, with expensive addtives, can be made to run at 500:1 all day long, no smoke.. prime protection, limited deposits.
If the manufacturers applied the same budget to two stroke R&D as they do four stroke, they would be equally as awesome, sans the 200cc displacement DEFICIT.
@tonewall, I here ya. The mechanic is the father of someone who has a national number. I won't say names or bash him. Everyone I know said not to use him now. It's racing and a mistake was made, he is human. Yes the 03 wants a new crank for Xmas. Spare bike now, my old bike and was only a main bike for my son for one year. Get this, have never changed the clutch plates on that 125 either...grooved basket for sure. It's the black sheep of the garage, only comes out when it has to back up that dam 4stroke. But don't get us completely wrong, we love that yzf.
@reality....thx dude. You got me feelin better about this 05 yz250 I want to buy. Wants $1400. It's clean and a steal of a deal. Not a boot scratch on it. He will have that bike screamin long before I even order cases for the yzf....thx again and merry Xmas to everyone.
you to man ! you will love it ,
Only reason I got rid of my 2-stroke was because my linebacker type frame(6'2"/225) was having a more difficult time at the end of the race keeping up with guys that could be 60-70 lbs lighter. It was an 01 cr250 with pro-circuit everything and could holeshot a 450 easy. My aging body and $12 race gas left me little choice if I wanted to still be competitive. Now that I don't race as much, I sure miss that bike. I just know my 4-stroke doesn't cost me more to ride and over the last 5 years has proven bullet-proof.
I've seen a kx 125 with no ring still run. They were so slow you didn't really notice.
If only there were a fuel injeted 250 two stroke in a modern aluminum frame with power couplers and air forks.
dude for anyone who has been reading these posts or questioning me watch this video . it basically sums it all up buy the two stroke!!!
http://www.racerxonline.com/2012/05/24/racer-x-tested-2012-yz125
rickamatuzio wrote: about 5 hours ago
"By the way, anyone that buys a pipe for a 450 either has small mans complex or is an idiot."
I know people who put them on to reduce weight and help handling by reducing weight up high and at same time help distibute the power a little different. You lose a lot of points on that one. Sounded really condescending too.
"Jeff Alessi, mr. Dead last, could show up at ANY race and lap any local pro in the world on a STOCK 450."
Wrong again: http://nescmotocross.com/archiveresultswrap.html
If you search alessi you will see he got beat by a few locals. It was a while ago, but I'm sure there are some that would beat him today. Some vet class guys.
Ok, yes it can happen.. Jeff Alessi could show up to spring creek and fall down losing a Moto. The reality is, these guys that are consistently getting top 20 at pro races are a different level. I know this because I failed miserably trying.. You think someone getting 38th at a national is slow?? They are usually the fastest person in the district week in and week out.
Thanks for proving our point about the pipe on the 450.. I didn't mean to be condescending, but its truth. If you need to spend 700$ to lighten your already too heavy bike up with exhaust wtf?? But I thought these bikes were better than two strokes anyways!! These bikes are treading on 60hp dude, how much power do you think you need?????
Ricky Carmichael could ride circles around all of us on a 125 guaranteed fact. Also, I had a 60hp cr450 from 07, the bike was stupid.. Everyone that rode it said it was retarded and hit so hard, it was so hard to ride. After my 4 stroke stint, I went and bought a 2006 yz250 and I absolutely love it..
And guess what, the only reason I bought a pipe is because the stocker is all dented up which doesn't hurt performance anyway, but the new pro circuit looks cool and I can afford the 219$.
By the way, putting a pipe on to save weight for handling is about as irrelevant as a local that continues to buy aluminum sprockets. 1 steel rear sprocket will last two years, not destroy your chain, and you WON'T feel the difference. I think idiot was a good word..
People think $= performance but they look in the wrong areas. I suppose a pro test rider MIGHT feel a pipe that's 1lb lighter after spinning 400 laps back and forth, but I assure you that a local wont know the difference ever ever ever.
Get your suspension setup to your weight, and spend your money on new tires. People often over look the importance of a fresh front tire, its good for sec a lap. Just my opinion, but hey.. I had some success and probably did everything wrong on e and learned where to put my money.
Please don't hate us, I'm not trying to be a dic$, I'm just saying that pros are really really really fast and they make it look easy. I'm also saying 450s and too fast for man as is.. That's why everybody is hurt year in and year out.
this video was actually the tipping point for me and a huge factor in making the move back to a two stroke , I havent looked backed and never will .
http://www.racerxonline.com/2012/05/24/racer-x-tested-2012-yz125
@rickm...Couldn't be more right about getting suspension done first. Even if you are in the target range having someone like FC (who I use) WILL make your bike better more than any other mod or bolt on. Had a guy last year actually try to get me moved up to expert because I had my suspension done and had new tires. Called me a cheater and only pro's need that stuff. Nothing helps more with rider confidence than knowing your suspension can handle whatever you can dish out. With springs and a few other extra goodies plus shipping, my bill was $800 and they will re-valve again for free. Even if the bike is sold, if the new owner pays for a rebuild they will revalve it for them if they pay for a rebuild. I do have a pipe but got it cheap, $300 for a complete stainless/aluminum PC system new. Good to know people.
Lots of 2 strokes here in the past, last 2 bikes have been 4 strokes....
If money is a significant factor then, yes, 2 stroke may be a good way to go. But asking strictly which is a better learning bike? I'd go with the 4 stroke. 2 strokes are too pipey and that sudden hit is more likely to cause whiskey throttle in a beginner and not much is more dangerous to a beginner than whiskey throttle. Plus some engine braking is a nice thing. I guess it depends on where his level is at. True beginner - 4 stoke; knows how to ride just fine and want to get out on a track - 2 stroke is fine.
As to his actual question about size/power.....the KTM 350 was a good idea. That seems like the right compromise he's looking for, again, depending on how big a factor cost is to him.
P.S. I haven't dumped any significant sums of money in to my 4 strokes yet. Aftermarket or maintenance. Going on 6 years of riding them. It is a very big concern in the back of my mind though.
rickamatuzio - My friend put a after market pipe he bought on e-bay for a couple hundred on his 2006 RMZ 450 (which he bought for $2000) and he said it made a big difference. I'll have to rell him he's a idiot next time I see him. But I won't because I'm not a dick.
"I'm also saying 450s and too fast for man as is.. That's why everybody is hurt year in and year out."
Very bold statement. No if and or buts about it. How about: David Bailey, Magoo Chandler, Ernesto Fonseca, Jimmy Button, Doug Henry the first time. I could go on. Weren't they all on 2 strokes?? Here is a list of riders who have been paralyzed on 4 strokes.... help me out here.
please dont hate us , must admit you got a good point with the injuries , your right , I missed that one. Its just bottom line a dangerous sport really . maybe its just because the field is so deep and close speed wise and there pushing so hard against each other is why we saw so many injuries and guys out ?
im still over four strokes any how lol , I'm curious about the 450 pipe comment to I personally dont know ? I mean i know a stock 450 is all the power you need but you would think a pipe would be def noticeable idk??
So what kind of difference did this pipe make on his RMZ?? I bet he was at least 2 sec a lap faster, and went from being a typical 10th place guy to making the podium.
He went from getting mid pack starts, to getting holeshots...
His bike cornered like it was on rails..
Give me a break. I've raced at a pretty high level, and I will bet that he "thinks" his pipe made a huge difference because it sounded louder. Purely mental. Tell him he is an idiot, and to spent his money on something that will actually help his lap times, please...
My friend, who qualifies for nationals and finishes inside the top 20 put a Dr. D pipe on his 2012 KX450. You know what he said??? It didnt make one bit of difference except for sounding different. Even if it did make 3 more HP, I can promise you that wouldnt affect his results in the least bit.
Putting a pipe on a 250F may actually be worth the money because the power of that bike can be utilized and they have more restricted exhaust ports anyway. Head porting is WAY more of an investment than a pipe. These pipes stock on 450s are STRAIGHT PIPES to begin with!! There are no baffles..the bottleneck restriction generally isnt the pipe.
Tell your friend to do a quarter mile drag race, and if he can "somehow" repeat his starting technique within .5 sec to begin with..if he can show me an improvement with the stop watch I'll believe you. Until then, I know better... Done this stuff my whole life.
(Also, put your friend in the 250A class on his 450, he will get a lesson on how important power is anyway. Remember, Baggett was running faster lap times than any 450 with a bike almost half the size).
Sorry for being a dick, but sometimes I just gotta say it like it is. People seem to listen better when they "think" they know something that they really dont.
Thanks Mishoeye, couldnt agree more. Craig Decker is one of my best friends so of course I use ENZO, also he was a former Kawasaki test rider for James Stewart.. the dude can shake down a motorcycle. Dean Wilson actually chose his settings over factory Kawi this year, before the Jeff Ward program went south. Decker told me straight out that the factories were making bikes that went so fast, that the riders asked for them to be detuned.
Here Please Dont Hate Us, give this a good read.
http://motocrosshideout.com/top-5-mods-to-do-to-your-motocross-dirt-bike/
This guy hit the nail on the head.
OOpps.. Please Dont Hate US, I guess I have to eat my words. I just got off the phone 10 sec ago, and Decker told me that he spoke with Doug Dubach and that the 2013 Honda 450 actually shows siginificant improvement with aftermarket pipe, so I am going to assume those double pipes are pretty restricted.
In this case, I guess I can see a pro rider needing a pipe for that bike. I also asked Decker if I was correct about nobody needs a pipe for a 450, and he said its probably the last place he would be his money, except on that 2013 Honda. He did say maybe a pro would need it, as saving 1lb and gaining possibly a quarter bike length at the TOP national level is worth it.. but probably not for slow guys like all of us.
So I eat crow, but I am still willing to bet that 450 honda is faster stock in the hands of david pingree, that anybody we know on a modded version. Its all rider.
Sorry, pertaining to the CR450 2013 looks like I AM the idiot.
Kenneth, I do not keep up with what sizes of bikes that are made anymore. I pull for for certain riders, not what they ride. My last bike was a 98 KTM 320 MXC . Actually, I still have it but haven't ridden since 00 (military stuff). I think a new 320 range MXC bike would be great for a 6' novice. They are almost bullet proof, especially if you don't rail them and when you need more you can change the pipe then go to a lighter flywheel. Then if you decide that racing is a little extreme for you you can put the stock stuff back on, spend about 500 more (prob more than that now) on a kit to make it street legal and do some dual sport events, they are a ton of fun and you meet a lot of great people.
I did not convert my MXC, I modified it as much as possible to make a 320 SX. I did the dual sporting on a 620 RXC but I always thought the 320 two stroke (with a kit to make it street legal have been a lot more fun. P.S. I ran out of Maico's, except a 79 500 (440) Magnum II in pristine condition that I bought new, and had to go to KTM. Actually never owned bout 2 Japanese bikes. My first dirt bike, first time to ride a dirt bike to, was a new 1972 TM 400 Suzuki. I was a 28 year old 5' 9" 130 pound muscle, (poured concrete for a living) young, dumb and fearless and mostly on the ground or half way up a tree. Anyone that ever rode a TM knows what I mean about the tree stuff, and can relate to me going streight
Oops! straight (give up on that word) to Maico's after trying to ride and race MX on that thing. Other Japanese bike was a very used and modified late 70's Honda 125 that I raced for about 2 months. I always preferred the 500's until the late 90's when I woke up one morning old, dumb, fatter and broken.
Sorry to ramble on but not no whole lot of exciting stuff going on for an old MX'er on Sat night before Christmas.
yes the 2013 crf450 needs a pipe unless you are just out sight seeing
on a 450 id do suspension first [ which i would do first on any bike ] then maybe a little motor work , i guess jetting is out of ? I think they are all fuel injected i believe, I think the only one left with a carb is the yam 250f , i think , a pipe would be last thing id say to, I believe something like every seven pounds of weight you shed you gain a horsepower also,
rickamatuzio - you didn't say anything about the riders getting hurt part? what's up with that? no rant and rave there? Big name dropper you. ha-ha. you do sound like a dick. The guy had fun and won a championship. I'm not going to tell you what he said it did for him. You are wrong though, but I'm not going to point out why because you will ignore it. The true sign of a closed mind.
I was just looking at a picture of John Dowd and he had a aftermarket pipe on his Kawasaki 450.
Name dropper? How so??
As they say, you can lead a horse to water.. But making him drink is a different story.
As for close minded, I think your backwards. I am going against common perception and saying a 450 doesn't need to a pipe! I have won 3 state championships myself, so I understand the whole dirt bike thing.. Ya know.
So, do you out a pipe on your lawn mower?? I bet you could really cut some grass then...
Before you judge me, read some of my posts.. I'm pretty honest, disciplined, humble, and willing to help others. My frustration comes from watching motocross disappear because of a ridiculous high cost. I have passion for this sport, I remember when people could race cheap and enjoy it. It KILLS me to see some dad spend a whole pay check on a pipe that won't do dick for his kids racing. Complete waste of money.. But someone sold him the idea that its going to make him a winner.
We had a disagreement, which neither if us won.. Peace dude. You buy a pipe for your 450 and I'll spend my money on a gym membership or something for fitness.
If they are a "complete waste of money" why was it # 5 on the list of mods you linked? The way you talk about local racers you must race at a place where everyone is a bunch of squids.
I would go back to a two stroke if I could find a good one for a good price. But if I did I wouldn't hate on people who ride 450s. I've been passed on a sand track on my 450 by a 50+ old guy on a 125. That doesn't mean I should buy a 125. The guy had been racing MX for 40 years, non stop.
And I judge you by comment like "do you have a pipe on your lawnmower?? I bet you could really cut some grass then...." that could be disrespectfully condenscending. Are you really try to make a point with that. Maybe you are trying to be funny like Ping. But that isn't all that funny either. And people actually race lawn mowers too and I bet they put pipes on them.
And I have a gym at work that is awsome and open 24/7.
Nov 2011 Dirt bike Magazine
Page 96, 10 tings You gotta Do To your Honda CRF450R
- Number 5, "The most cost effective performance mod is a good slip-on pipe. we installed a FMF PowerCore, which carries an MSRP under $300. top-end and midrange power dramatically".
should be: "top-end and midrange power are increased dramatically".
Show me the numbers please.. show me a REAL dyno test and track test with that powercore pipe. Not PHONY tests like I was reading on TransWorld MX. I had to call them out on their graphs.. watching torque and hp cross whereever they see fit. Anyone that has a dyno know thats Torque = HP at 5252rpm ALWAYS. Torque x RPM / 5250 is the formula.. Trust me Please don't hate us, believe half of what you read. Marketing is a powerful tool, unforunately someone is getting paid to voice their opinion.. (so it really isnt opinion) and facts are manipulated within the rules. I have personally witnessed it
The article I sent..
" A stock bike that’s finely-tuned and properly set up is faster than a bike with thousands of “hop-up” mods to make it go faster. You must realize that 90+% of racing is the rider and NOT the bike. Exhaust systems are actually pretty good these days, so most bikes won’t gain much power from an aftermarket exhaust (yes, even after re-jetting it!). "
I believe thats the article I posted..
And your damn right I'm hating on four stroke bubba, you know why? LOOK AT WHAT RACINGS BECOMING??? OPEN YOUR EYES. Did you enjoy watching the OPEN class nationals this year?? I know I didnt because I couldnt stay awake! You think supercross is better?? Then go back and watch races from 10 years ago, your jaw will drop at the action. How about the local numbers at your race tracks? I race district 23, where we USED to get 1400 riders a weekend, this year the average was 250. Blame the economy all you want, but its common sense that the cost of the sport has SKYROCKETED and its killing it!
Im done on this.. your a pipe guy and thats cool, if you have the money more power to you. I just know the truth, because I used to buy all this stuff, until the skinny kid on the clapped out 84 CR250 STOCK with no knobbies (dented pipe) and no rear fender won A class. I realized real fast to go work on my corner speed and save my money. I hope the kid above we are trying to help, will now at least ask around before making a decision.. cause we are helping him by showing him both sides of the fence.
Lets end this. (by the way the lawn mower comment was funny as hell.. do you blip the throttle on your lawn mower before you mow?? Like kids do on the starting line!! Just wondering)
You're focusing on a pipe for pure HP and performance. As Dirtbike said the pipe can also move the power around and make a bike eaiser to ride. That is why why my buddy liked the one on his RMZ 450. That bike is a four speed and lacks top end. It moved the power a little and helped him in corners.
Ricky Carmichael could dust me on a GasGas. I've been passed by Dowd (both John and Ryan), Doug Henry, guys who just miss quilafying for Nationals. I've been passed by really fat guys who smoke cigarettes in the staging area before the race. It's not the bike and it's not strength or fitness. But everything helps. Maybe if that fat guy lost weight and quit smoking he would be as fast. Everyone is different. Mcgrath used to be very particular about his bike setup and if something wasn't just right it would effect him. RC would just ride the bike and little things were not as big a deal to him.
And on the lawn mower... I've done heel clickers when my MX buddies are looking.
For some reason I'm reminded of when I used to go on wrecker calls (tow truck) in the winter with my buddy to do jump start cars. So many people (usually women) would immediately take that cold engine and hold the gas pedal pinned to the floor and then sit there and rev back and forth like they wanted to punish it for not starting and that would help it start next time. It was funny but he being a gear head used to hate it. He would tell people to give it just a little gas when it starts and let it warm up but some would still hold it to the floor. I never thought about it until he mentioned it and then it was amazing.
Thanks again for proving my point. Any engine builder knows a pipe does not dictate where the power is on a 4 stroke engine for the most part. Camshaft profile determines cylinder pressure, high rpm vs low rpm. More marketing, that my straight pipe makes more low end power than your straight pipe.
This is true on 2 stroke engines with transverse cones, stinger diameter etc. to move the powerband around with the pipe.
Scavenging exhaust is a little more difficult on single cylinder 4 stroke engines.
Nice talking with ya
I will agree with you that the cost of the sport is out of control. It is from every direction though. I have to buy a transponder and pay a fee to the transponder company now. I used to race the NESC 30+C class a while back and there were full gates. This fall I noticed there were 3 people in that class at most races.
I told my self I wouldn't buy a new bike when the price went over $5,000 for a 250 2 stroke. In 1991 I bought a brand new S10 for $5,000. Look what trucks cost now. Same thing. I don't need or want a living room on wheels.
Have a good holiday!
Hey I just got a new kx450 and I was wondering what size sprocket on the front should I use?