Bench Racing Ammo: Pointing Out
Thursday, April 5, 2012 | 5:30 PM
MOTOREX is used by factory teams worldwide, by independent pros and by top amateurs who demand the best performance from their race machines. The complete MOTOREX line includes a broad range of synthetic engine oils, lubricants, aerosol sprays, cleaners and care products. MOTOREX is available at dealerships nationwide.
Tweet
Advertisement | Advertise with Us
Share
Comment
Email
PrintPoor Broc Tickle. The Monster Energy Pro Circuit Kawasaki man could be shining up a number-one plate right now in attempts to defend his 2011 SX Lites West title, but instead, he’s mired in the SX class, trying to find his footing against the fastest riders in the world. Against the now injury-decimated 450 division, Tickle just logged a season-best seventh in Houston. But it’s not the results that bother Tickle as much as the way he’s riding—he’s said over and over that he’s just not riding the way he knows he can.
But he’s stuck in the big class because of the Lites “pointing out” rules. What are those rules? Who is on the verge of getting “the bump” for 2013? Let’s check it out for this week’s Bench Racing Ammo:
In the AMA/FIM SX Rulebook, Rule E2 section d. reads:
Effective with the 2007 season points, riders earning at least 135 points in a nine-race season, 120 points in an eight-race season, or 105 points in a seven-race season, in three seasons of Lites competition will be ineligible for the Supercross Lites Class.
Wharton still has two years of eligibility left in the Lites class.
Simon Cudby photo
This is the classic “pointing out” rule, which has been tweaked a bit through the years. In the old days, a rider had to score a certain amount of points in consecutive years, but now three years of the correct number of points, even non-consecutively, knocks you out of the class.
But the points totals are generous. We did some research and found out even some of the fastest riders in the Lites class missed the 120-point threshold (in eight races) a few times, and thus still have some eligibility left.
Blake Wharton came in just under the 120 point mark in 2009 and 2010, with 118 pts in 2009, and 116 pts in 2010. So Blake gets at least two more seasons in Lites.
Dean Wilson scored just 105 points in 2010, because of getting stuck in Canada and missing some races. Technically, he won’t be forced out of the class this year based on points, but there’s another rule that might bump him out. More on that later.
Blake Baggett scored 118 points in 2010. Like Wharton, he just missed the 120-point mark, and that will save him from getting forced to the 450s for 2013.
Now, another rule (this is the one that caught Tickle):E2, Section E, Rule 2.
A rider that wins a Supercross Lites Championship will be eligible to participate in the Supercross Lites class for a maximum of three years total regardless of what year he/she won the title. (i.e. if a rider wins the Championship in their third year of Supercross Lites competition, they will be ineligible for the Supercross Lites class regardless of points and therefore not eligible to defend their Supercross Lites Championship title).
Did you catch that? The rule says if you’ve raced Lites for three (or more) years, you’re out as soon as you win a championship. That’s what happened to Tickle. Interestingly, this rule is part of a revision that allowed Trey Canard to stay in the Lites class for three years. Canard won the 2008 East Lites Championship in his rookie season, and the old rules stated that a rider only gets one year to defend (2009 for Canard) before being forced into the 450s. This new “you get to be in the class for three years total regardless of when you win the title” rule kept Canard in the Lites class for 2010.
It also knocked Tickle out for 2012.
By rule, Barcia has to move up to the 450 class next season.
Simon Cudby photo
This rule could be a factor in this year’s West Region Championship. This is year three in the class for Wilson, so if he wins that title, he’s out like Tickle. Same for Cole Seely, who still has an outside shot at the championship. We hear Wilson is actively shopping for a 450 ride next year, anyway, so he probably doesn’t care if he gets bumped. Seely has a two-year deal with Lucas Oils/Troy Lee Honda, though, so it could get complicated (like it did for Tickle) if he were bumped up.
Eli Tomac is safe because this is only his second year in the class, he can defend next year if he wins the West. But had he won the title last year, (he was close) and repeated again this year, he would have been forced to the 450s. A rider can only win two SX Lites titles, total, and that rule trumps all others. Justin Barcia is on the verge of kicking that rule into play in the East. Even if Barcia somehow doesn’t win the title, he’s out anyway, because he has scored enough points in his three seasons to point out, and he won one title, and remember, if you win one title you can only race in the class for three years.
One more interesting note: Josh Hansen has still not pointed out of the Lites class. Note the first rule above states “effective with the 2007 season” so Hanny’s first foray into the 125/Lites class doesn’t count. He was then only back in the class for 2010 and 2011, so he would still be eligible to ride another season. Credit to Hanny to volunteering to move up on his own.
Did you like this article?
Check out HIGH/LOW
in our Latest issue of Racer X available now.
Each of the five major manufacturers had its ups and downs during the 2013 Monster Energy Supercross campaign. Page 118.
Look for the verified symbol 
Impulse Studios
Wish Sipes would move up to the premier class. Premier rider, premier roots, premier attitude. Idk what it is about KY riders. Must be something in the water...
I say just make it a straight 5 year maximum, NO exceptions..
Seems like Tyla Rattray should be involved in this somewhere.
Well Tyla Rattray did his first season of supercross last year I believe and was out for a round or two due to injury. I am not sure if that is correct but I think that's it.
Davalos should be forced to move up. He's been mooching rides in the lites for too long now.
Tickle can thank Seely for getting him moved up last year. There is no crying in racing so take the title move up and get smoked then retire in 2 years.
I'd be all for just forcing the 2 (East/West) winners up each year. Defending the lites title is silly. This would keep the 450 class fresh.
Rattrey is making a career out of the 250 class and thats sad. Especially outdoors were he is a force.. I like the idea of moving them up, no rule is perfect, but something needs to be done..
I just have one question...Why can't Barry Carsten ride the lites class?
Big Bore Barry?
I agree with the rules for the most part. Move em' up! I agree with 7311chopper. Win it, and you're out. Keep both classes fresh.
I agree as well defending is pointless unless you stay till you are dethroned, imagine if that happened in boxing or ufc the champ could only defend his belt once than he had to move up a weightclass
Sipes needs to move up. Seems like he's been in this class forever.
Remember the good old days when riders like Lechien, Johnson, and Ward couldn't wait to ride the 250cc bike (the 450 class now is the old 250cc class). Now racers are making a career riding 250F's, but the real men of moto always wanted to race against the fastest racers in the main class. Rick Johnson was on a 250cc at 17 years old. The 450 class would be so much better with half of the top 250 riders in it. Racers milk the paycheck instead of being proud to make the jump up to 450.
Whatever happened to WANTING to race with the fastest bikes and the best riders.
The only problem that I can see with pointing out riders quicker is the amount of rides available in the Supercross class. Some riders are great on a 250 and not so great on a 450. Josh Hansen for one. I feel that a rider should be able to defend his title until he looses it after that he has to move up.
Poor Tickle? He's been there and done that for long enough. The AMA should go a step further and put an age limit on 250 SX and MX like the FIM does for the GP's. Let the 250's be for the up and comers, not the experienced guys who are just too slow to really do much against the big boys. The AMA also needs to be really teaching the young guys how to act like professionals. When they do something as stupid as Barcia in Houston, suspend them so they learn. He said himself he doesn't care about the bonus money for the win, so he clearly also doesn't care about a small fine. I guarantee he will do this garbage again, and I also guarantee he wouldn't if the AMA suspended him, that would actually teach him a lesson.
Well said Warrior, I am going to go a step further and say Barcias antics should have disqualified him of a championship. Everyone in the media is saying that he is just a kid, but I have been hearing that the last 3 years. If he has not learned by now, he never will... Sorry to say,
Why hasn't Ping weighed in on this conversation or has this topic become too old for him?
I've heard both sides of the fence and they both have good points. My problems are these:
1) How can you MAKE a rider move up to the unemployment line when he has a (well) paying gig at the present. (I believe this was Ping's position all those years ago).
2) The old "125 specialist" axiom still has vaidity. Do we make a midget (for lack of better example) move up when we all know he has NO BUSINESS saddling up a 450?
3) Even when the economy could bear multiple premeire-class rides (which is not reality as of now), there just weren't a lot of seats available to go around. Do we make a Privateer out of an otherwise factory-level performer for the sake of "making room for new blood"?
4) Development. There are great, good and horrible R&D guys. Someone who knows their craft, is a good communicator to the techs, does well in the class and is a good representitive of the companies is a diamond in the rough. A team losing this ASSET to the unemployment line is ridiculous and asking them to give up their dream to go be a test-rider when they feel they have more gas in the tank is doing the competitive spirit of the sport a disservice.
This is a tough situation in tough times, folks.
Isn't the saying "let those who ride decide" valid in this conversation?
The term "Cherry Picker" has been around a long time but, I'm not certain it applies here 100%.
There are no multiple rider factory teams anymore in the open class but, there are four and five man teams in the 250F's.
What if we go rock-paper-scissors when your time comes up and if you win, you do what you want.
OR what about opening the 250F class to all 17 rounds to declare a "National Champion" and keeping the regional moniker for part-timers? You could still point-out of regionals AND stay on a 250F to gain experience, not lose your job, etc?
The physical build of a person doesn't limit them to a 250f. RC is the proof of that. Heck none of the latest greats have been very big at all. If you can win on a 250f, you should be able to do pretty well on a 450.
So I'm still thinking the rule should be if you win a championship in the lites class, you have proven youself and congratulations you are now in the premiere class.
Carlsbad, just because a rider makes it to the pro level, that doesn't give them the right to stick around forever. Racing at that level is a privilege and if they can't cut it with the 450's after a few good years in the 250's, so be it.This is the problem with a lot of riders today, they feel they're entitled to way too much. It's best for the sport if they have to work their butts off or get out. I don't believe that any decent 250 guy will be out of a job just because he has to move up. Evidence: Jeff Alessi has a 450 ride. Who cares if some factory 250 guys have to go privateer, it would be good for most of them to get a bit of a reality check and build some character anyway.
Poor Broc Tickle? C'mon man. He's a big boy. He'll get the 450 dialed in soon!
Barcia & Wilson on 450's? Now that's gonna be fun!
@ warrior462, Doug Dubach, Kyle Lewis, Barry Carsten, Kevin Windham, John Dowd. Those are just a few names that have "stuck around". Not arguing, just "pointing" it "out"......get it?
Hey Racer X, how about doing a piece on all the guys that have pointed out under unfavorable circumstances? I think Jeromy Buehl might have been the first (Team Peak / PC '91ish). I'd enjoy hearing their take on this topic, as they are / have been closer to the fire than most and obviously have invested interest in the subject.
Maybe Ping could co-write the piece with Jody? Yes, that was a little jab, in jest of course.
Joking aside, for every racer that the factories can't wait to move up (RC & Stewart to name a couple), there's a boat load of talent that for whatever reason, may not be ready. I'm not really pro or con for either side, it's just point / counterpoint.
@731Chopper, you're right. Of course there have been a lot of smaller racers that have excelled in the "big" classes, I was just using that as an example. Some of the smaller guys were VERY good on big bikes. I'd have never thought Jeff Ward would've been the 500cc performer he was when compared to his contemporaries but, he was a beast on that big 'ol Kawie.
How about making a 450 privateer class? For guys like wey, blose and any other 250 guy who cant get a 450 ride, this class would award a nice check to each of the top three at each race. That way everybody will have an equal advantage in this class, and 450 race teams can watch this class for any fast guys out there then bump them up and have them race for their team in the regular 450 class. Because I think it can be really hard for a guy who has the skills to run up front in the 450 class, but cant because his team may not have all the money and the parts to get his bike to run as good as a factory team. Look what that pc bike did for Durham for example.
The Lites class was originally a 125 support class, not even getting TV time 20yrs ago. Sure, let them race all 16 rounds and do away with the East/West thing, but I think it's dumb and confusing when a rider can finish 5th in the Supercross class but would not even crack the top 5 in the 250 class (ex: Nick Wey). [sorry Nick]
Why does the AMA have to make Lites class rules really confusing?! Now I know why the 100 pts. in 3 straight Lites seasons (or 2 consecutive titles) rule was a great one -- it was simple and easy to remember; now it's all jumbled up like a jigsaw puzzle and it's totally confusing for new fans to the sport, or a long-time fan such as myself. The AMA needs to start living by that old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
@ carlsbad - great points in your first post.
The only thing I'd add is that for those riders that don't have the skills of an RC, Stewart, Ward, etc. the extra time on them smaller bike will help them get better at riding SX so they're less likely to get injured when they move up to a 450.
Riding a 450 on a SX track is a lot more difficult than riding a 250, both because of the weight and rotating mass of the larger engine. It is really tough to "manhandle" a 450 unless you are seriously talented. This isn't the case for 125 and 250 2t. They aren't that different to ride and are much lighter than today's 4t.
Carlsbad, the pointing out rule has absolutely no effect on the careers of great guys like those you mentioned who have stuck around. Not really sure what your point was supposed to be there. None of those guys were entitled to such long careers just because they went pro, they earned it and we respect them for that.
CR500AF, extra time on the 250 will make riders less likely to be injured on the 450? Bull-oney. The 250 teaches you to give it everything the bike has, do that on a 450 and you're dead. The 250 also teaches you to manhandle the bike to put it where you want it, and as you said yourself, that's really tough to do with a 450.
How about getting rid of that godamn lites name,kinda sounds like a 3 dollar bill.250/450 is it really that hard.
I don't see the point of any of it. If you have a Pro license, your bike passes Tech, and you can make the fast fourty, then you are in the evening program. All else is BS.
If they really cared about making the 250 class accessible to up-and-comers, they would allow 250 2-strokes. Competitive actual privateer 250Fs (4-strokes) are all but nonexistent.
"If I were king", this is how I'd do it:
1) Merge the E/W series to all 17 rounds and declare a National champion. This way, we get to see Barcia, Tomac, Wilson, Roczen, etc, all racing at the same time ensuring the cream is truly rising to the top and paying spectators are ensured they are seeing the best the class has to offer.
2) Keep an E/W series for the part-timers, rookies, regional racers, etc. We could declare E & W (regional) champions so as to attract support team interest in these racers and allow them the option of doing a series they can afford.
3) Stop the Four-stroke agenda! Since I'm not being pulled in any direction from special interests and closed-course means EPA & CARB do not have a say in the first place, allowing two-strokes back into the fold would ensure a cost-effective way for aspiring racers to afford a season-long campaign and create an "us vs them" atmosphere of competition for the two styles of motor thus, increasing spectator interest.
4) measure from the same ruler. A 250 is a 250 no matter how many strokes. Same for 450's. If the "four-stroke revolution" is truly that, it shouldn't have to handicap the smokers with stupid fuel restrictions, size-hobbling, etc. "Let those who ride decide".
5) Select a fuel standard. Chemists can actually formulate a fuel that would serve both two AND four stroke while offering advantage to neither. Crazy, huh?
6) Constuct a balanced points fund for the ENTIRE field. Believe it or not, the guys at the bottom of the food chain actually need the $ more than the guys at the top. Also, it is not a crime to show a profit at the end of your racing season (whether the promoter agrees or not).
7) Healthcare for the masses: Something has to give. Either pay us well enough to afford our own insurance or carry a blanket policy for the field. Profitability or liability will be the deciding factor. If Feld doesn't like paying clowns (or the freaks, whichever you prefer) to perform at the circus, someone else will.
8) NO factory favoritism: Random.......no really, random drawings for practice, qualifying, etc. If you really are the "FMOTP", it shouldn't be that big of deal. If the "big five" don't like it, go home, the "new big five" (Husky, TM, Husaberg, BMW, Chang-quack, etc) will gladly take your place.
9) Hold someone, in some position, at some time, liable for poor track design, dangerous conditions (rocks, tuff block covers, etc) and anything else I think might be a hanging offense.
10) unbiased judgment: go to text response for questionable actions. I'd rather have a room full of monkeys deciding my fate than an AMA or FIM official. They have shown time and again that they are ineffectual. If they don't like it, CMC, NESC, REM, etc, would probably sanction it for a lot less.
11) Allow "works" bikes at half (or similar) points paid out, waiving the finishing postion payout and only one per team. This way, we get our works bikes back, let the teams test what they need, where they want, don't harm the privateers payday and create more spectator interest.......win,win,win.
If all these things were implemented, I would have ZERO need for "pointing-out".
If you have any discrepancies, please direct your rants to J. Weigandt, care of Racer X. Thank you.
First off,the field is slanted to the 4-strokes.Only 2 manufacturers are making 2-smokers anymore.[w/apoligies to TM and others]The BIG 4 run the AMA and dictate policy and have no interest in 2-stoke developement.Also when the AMA sold promotional rights to both the SX/MX series to the highest bidder;these groups only looked after their best interests-keeping the BIG 4 happy.No one is looking out for the Privateers,with the A-group getting favorite son status with a groomed track and all.How about better start/first turn designs where a bad gate pick isn't a death sentace.The pointing out rule is semi ok,but to really fix it,give equal status both championship and purse to the 250 class.Also the old qualifiers system at both sx and the nationals was much better than timed qualifying.And as a time filler-a 125 race with a decent purse as a developemental class.But the purse at SX'S is a travesty already.Everyone who makes the night program should get a decent chunk of change.