by Bad Billy
Bench Racing Ammo: Starts
Thursday, March 17, 2011 | 12:20 PM
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Each week, Speed TV’s Jeff Emig stresses the start as a key to the race. And each week, the riders talk about needing to get a good start.
We all know the start is important, but how important is it? We decided to look back through the first ten races of the season and see where the winner was after the first lap of the main event. See below:
The start. A key to any race.
Photo: Andrew Fredrickson
Race – Winner – Position after the first lap
Anaheim 1 – Ryan Villopoto – second
Phoenix – James Stewart – first
Los Angeles – Ryan Villopoto – ninth
Oakland – James Stewart – second
A2 – James Stewart – first
Houston – Trey Canard – fourth
San Diego – Chad Reed – first
Atlanta – Ryan Villopoto – fourth
Daytona – Ryan Villopoto – second
Indy – Ryan Villopoto - second
As you can see, there were only three times where the rider who got the holeshot won the race, but every time except once, the winner did get a top five start. (The worst position an eventual race winner was on the first lap was when Ryan Villopoto came around on the first lap of the Los Angeles supercross in ninth.)
So what does all of this mean? The start is key! Didn’t you already know that?
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It also shows that apparently RV2 is the only one capable of overcoming a bad start.
LA was definitely RV's most convincing win.
RV had a convincing win at LA? Stewie crashed right, how can any of these guys believe a good win is convinciing unless they beat Stewie straight up with no crashes or bad starts. RV has had alot of luck on his side this year and HE KNOWS IT.
Villipoto is having a convincing season. He's the only one of the race winners showing real consistency and he has done a good job making the most of the bad nights. It takes speed to win races, but it takes speed, heart and intelligence to be champ. The other guys are gonna have to step it up and/or hope that Villipoto has some bad luck, cause I don't think he's gonna give it away by being dumb.
Being good at starts, I like it whenever it is me on the line, but as a spectator it really sucks that the start is so pivotal...I would like to see them do ~3-tiered/row starts, with staggered gate locations, a la track-n-field. Gate choices awarded to lowest qualifying times. More fair, safer, and better for everyone, TV included.
Sooner or later, these modern, high-dollar sponsors coming into the sport will get a belly full of their entier night being shot due to one brief tangle, right off the bat!!
Lot's of changes thru the years in MX & SX.We need to incorporate Sx mains to 20min plus 2 laps.Period.
Stewie's gifts to RV are exactly that: G I F T S!
Beat him straight up if you're concerned about people's truthful comments... Pit buzz at Indy was all bout RV and his lack of earning his wins...
Villopoto is going to win the championship because he is the strongest mentally. All of the top guys can ride, but he makes the fewest mistakes, and doesn't worry about racing who is behind him. Stewart cannot handle the pressure. Reed is inconsistent. Dungey is too content to follow. Canard has already given his best shot.
Really MonkeyButt? I respect your opinion but couldn't disagree more. The land rush style starts in MX are exciting and fair. There usually isn't an entire night shot for a top rider because of a start. In fact it makes things more interesting because if a guy like Stewart, Villipoto or Reed have a bad start they have to work thru the pack. If there were tiered starts based on qualifying it would be a parade. Also it was tried in 85 with a reverse order start and all the top riders (except Rick Johnson) sandbagged in their qualifiers so they could get front row starts. So your either giving an advantage off the start to guys who don't need anymore advantages, or if you do the reverse order start you will see cheating.
The starts in this sport have been run this way for too long; the gate layout will not change.
The simple fact is that whoop sections, huge triples, and even 20 man bar-to-bar starts are all ways to limit the talent pool to the best of the best. We know it’s highly unlikely that a true privateer will pull a holeshot over finely tuned race engines from high dollar teams. That competitive advantage is not likely to be relinquished; same with the fundamentals of the track design and starting gates. In this world the way it is and the way it ought to be will always depend on the perspective, and the dollars backing that perspective. The high dollar teams and sponsors don’t want to make the playing field any more level because they spend too much to tilt that scale in their favor.
What would be nice is if every rider in the main event was racing around the same pace, like in AMA Superbike and MotoGP’s. If you are not within a rage, time frame, of the qualifying times you don’t make the show. This way fewer lappers, if any, are in the racing line and all the riders are clearing all of the triples. The mains have 13-15 guys running a hot pace and the others are just “fillers” for the gate. I know those fillers are fast riders, just compared to the Pros they are not that close. No one wants a diluted talent pool to watch for their $75 ticket.
@Coltron 30-30
You've got to be kidding me. How is going really fast and crashing more admirable than going fast and winning?
If all you care about is who can go the fastest through a given section watch qualifying!
Wow powder you must be watching all the races and understanding that the leaders are lapping into the top 10, and that JS him self has been at risk for being lapped a couple of times. So it looks like you are saying that we should take out the stupid slow guys out of the top 15 so that we only have 5 guys racing around the track. Do you realize what you are talking about? Some times racers have a bad night and simply don't preform well. Even if we had 20 riders that could ride within .10 seconds of each other there would still be issues with riders in the way. If you do not like the sport by all means watch something else.
Thank you Yamahaa. I don't want to see our sport turned into road racing either. Also Factory teams don't have a motor advantage, it's their suspension. Anyone can build a powerful motor.
As far as people beating Stewart when he doesn't bobble, crash, or have a bad start. When would that be? And James is giving Villopoto gifts? Why doesn't someone tell him to stop giving races away then? Or, is it that James is not givign gifts to Ryan and is just riding like crap? If the fastest guy on any given lap doesn't win the race then he is not the fastest rider.
---see?! You both make my point. There will never be a separate class for them, as u agreed, so this is the next best thing. It makes for safer, much more intense racing. Due to qualifying times, riders of the same pace would be inherently "grouped' together on the track with riders of like speed, which is what makes "good racing", good racing, period.
The lappers will be lapped sooner rather than later, so why have them launch with the Top 10 and clutter things up??
Yes, it makes starts slightly less important---slightly. But to make this thing better for tv, ie, sponsors, ie, life-blood to keep this sport alive, it is a small price to pay: not only does it make for more battling, it greatly reduces the chance of a sponsor having their "billboard" taken out in the first turn, and possibly for the season.
It is very obvious that RV2 is the best all around racer right now and it is going to get more convincing when they go outside. Being capable of putting the fastest lap down here and there does not make you the fastest man on the planet. Being fast the most often and finishing first, makes you the fastest man/racer on the planet. Stop the stewie pity party and get used to it!
mokeybutt: your a tard! I'm guessing that in your world, the Championship should go to the (most popular) or (decided by a vote) or maybe everyone gets to be the Champ at some point in their career. Someway, other than being the best throughout the series. Micro manage yourself, not everyone else.
every wreck james has had this season is his own fault, I have been to or watched every race. It is no "gift" at all it is called Mistake. Every race that rv has had against James has been "straight up". If someone else caused James to go down or a mechanical problem had caused James not to win, I would call that a gift. Rider error has caused RV not to win as well. A race is a contest to see which rider can complete 20 laps the fastest, RV has done this 5 times James has done it 3. Can it get any simpler than this?? The one exception is Houston where JAMES messed up himself and a lot of other riders with him including Reed and RV at the start, we could safely assume both Reed and RV would both have placed better and had more points had it not been for James yet again being out of control in Houston.
Gifts?
Gifts?
let me see, in motocross, we all line up at a gate. first one to the flag wins.
how is it a gift if one doesn't get there before another?
they started lined up right next one another, or am i missing something?
just as Dungeys championship last year, they all lined up on the gate at Anahiem 1.... how does he not deserve a big number one if he made to the flag in Vegas FIRST?
RV hasn't be "gifted" anything.
A staggered start theory IMO would cause more (injuries) problems than a single row start.Simply stupid!
Here is a fun(?) exchange, where one poster said: "Stewart went 24-0 because there was NO real competition there, No RC No RV no CR, Since there is so much crap talk of gift race wins "That title was a gift that year"."
so I said: Let's examine the competition shall we...............
2008 outdoors
1. J. Stewart 600 2. T. Ferry 414 3. A. Short 392 4. M. Byrne 377 5. C. Cooper 266 6. N. Wey 264 7. J. Hill 234 8. J. Alessi 233 9. S. Hamblin 225 10. M. Alessi
2004 outdoors
1. R. Carmichael 600 2. C. Reed 476 3. K. Windham 444 4. D. Vuillemin 351 5. E. Fonseca 300 6. M. Byrne 294 7. N. Wey 287 8. S. Tortelli 273 9. H. Voss 257 10. S. Hamblin
2002 outdoors
1. 600 Ricky Carmichael 12 2. 440 Timmy M Ferry 0 3. 396 Ezra Lusk 0 4. 359 Sebastien Tortelli 0 5. 325 Kyle Lewis 0 6. 310 Mike Larocco 0 7. 288 John Dowd 0 8. 230 Sean D Hamblin 0 9. 228 Robbie L Reynard 0 10. 203 Nathan Ramsey
Carmichael's 24-0 opponents, don't look any more menacing than stewart's, now do they ?
Then he/she said: "TRICK your a moron, There was a 4 year gap there between them and those riders were vets by the time 2008 rolled around and Alessi was the only threat and got hurt after a few races......Besides Carmichael did it on a 2 stroke against mostly four stokes the first time You forget Carmichael has 2 in a row almost 3 .....Get real, There is no comparisons to the GOAT try all you want, Stewarts name shouldn’t even be mentioned with Carmichael."
Then i said: Sorry yz125f, but your response shows that you are the' moron'. And, stop calling people names on the internet, grow up or just go away. Yeah right, vets ? Timmy ferry was so over the hill, when he helped us win the mxon. And in 2002, the track was still half 4 -strokes and half 2-strokes, as they were still very equal in terms of performance, at that time. R/c was at no disadvantage whatsoever, unlike stewart in 2005 (only 250 left on the track). 2 in a row? Please put your crack pipe down before you post. If you think carmichael's competition was any better than stewart's , then you are delusional. Lets see if any other posters, agree with your assessment of the situation. For someone so infatuated with the GOAT, you should come prepared, with some better facts.
you cannot necessarily deduce from these statistics that the start is key. you could also say the best riders are also the best starters. however we know this to be untrue as the 800 could be considered one of the better starters of all time, but doesn't have many wins.
And speaking of VETS, there was not a single rider in any of the three recorded perfect seasons, who posessed a national title, except Mike Larocco (2), who raced against ricky in 2002. LaRocco was 31 years old.
Yamahaa, do you have trouble reading? I admit, there were probably too many words in that last post for you to follow along with the thought process. Oh, and your stellar math skills are blinding even for this msg board.
This was a reply to monkeybutt's proposed gate-layout change; hence the alias I used.
When you call other people names on the internet, it makes you look like a 'pusssssy". I am not saying that I think that you are a pusssssy, I am only reminding you, that you LOOK like one, by calling other people names on the internet. If you really wanted a fight, then you would go down to your local 'corner bar', and say that to somebodys face, like a real man, instead of acting like a big tough guy, on a message board.
Now "afanofstewie" saysd if a guy gets a bad start its not straight up too. Geez. some of these guys just never give up.
Trick. Look again at RC,s competition and say that again. In 2002 RC had Reed and a healthy and fast Tim Ferry and Kevin Windham, and Tortelli, who beat Stefen Everts on more than one occasion. If you really think that competition isnt tougher than a 6years older Ferry and Short, you are just a Stewtard. Get real. RC had it all over Stewie, how many times did he have to beat him for all tthose titles to prove it to some of you guys?? Sometimes a guy just cant do enough for some people, or they are just torn up because thier rider couldnt beat him.
I like the start format but if it were to change to anything my preference would be a cold start. Although it wouldn't be long before everyone had E-starters like KTM so scrap that idea. Its not like the bar to bar format is exclusive to the pro's. This is grass roots fella's. When I started racing there wasn't a gate; just a flagger.
bd200 you have twisted everything around. all those titles?. stop arguing with me about everything. let the other people on here give thier two cents about it . peace.
When you call other people names on the internet, it makes you look like a 'pusssssy". I am not saying that I think that you are a pusssssy, I am only reminding you, that you LOOK like one, by calling other people names on the internet. If you really wanted a fight, then you would go down to your local 'corner bar', and say that to somebodys face, like a real man, instead of acting like a big tough guy, on a message board.
if i am a stewtard, then you are an r/ctard. lets stop calling names ok. if you call me one more name on here, i will pass on your posts from now on, and not read them. i have that right you know. .
Why do some people always bring up the issue of beating straight up. This sport is about keeping it in two wheels.
RV may have received GIFTS this season, but he deserves such for staying close to those guys in front, lurking, waiting for mistakes, and capitalize on those mistakes.
The problem with JS is he wants to win all the time, that sometimes he ride above his head. Though I saw some character changes this season, but still he pushes too hard that sometimes mistakes are imminent.
RV on the other hand, doesn't think that way. He patiently waits, accepts what the race has for him. If second is all he've got, then he'll take it (The typical RC character).
From this sport, winning is not everything. It's about patience, humility, staying consistent and keeping it up in two wheels. That is why RV is winning this season... He became more patient, humble, consistent, and most of all, committed less mistakes...
I always said there were two races in a moto.. The race to the first turn, then the race to the checkered flag. If you did well in the first race, (the first corner), you stood a lot better chance at finishing the second race on the top of the podium. The results back that wisdom up pretty well. And not one person was insulted with this post.....
Carmichael even beat up on stewart when he had already basically retired and was only racing a partial season. Remember, he got his 150th win against stewart. Ask James if he thinks he was a match for Carmichael. I've heard him comment that he just couldn't ever figure out how to beat RC.
When someone says someone else "looks like a putssy", isn't that the same as calling them a putssy? and isn't that callin' names?
What a bunch of a...holes.
Gifts? Based on your logic then non of these guys are earning a victory because they are not beating RC straight up. So unless RC comes back to race then nobody can be legit.
They have all started the same number of events and will when the series is over. If you ride over your head and hit the dirt, well your only as good as your actual results. Not a single lap, not the cool photo, just the results.
It is a RACE to the checkered flag. The best "Racer" in the world for this series is the one who erns the most points.
All the others have nifty little meaningless labels.
everyone is always saying stewart is the fastest man on the planet. he is the fastest man untill he crashes. if someone where to build a bike with a motor so fast it would only last 1 minute and was all top end power and make the bike so it hooked up really well and couldnt turn but the bike would get every holeshot. would the rider riding the bike then be the fastest man on the planet. my point is how small of an increment of the race are you going to judge a racer on? this is motorcycle racing and races are 20 laps!!!! and championships are many races.
Guess what homerun hitters take advantage of in baseball, a MISTAKE by the opposing pitcher. Guess what a defensive back/linebacker takes advantage of when intercepting the ball, a MISTAKE by the opposing QB. In sports, one person's upward movement usually comes at the expense of another's mistake. Everyone can't execute perfectly all the time. Those that take advantage of their opponents mistakes the best usually come out on top. Right now we are seeing RV execute more perfectly and more often than James has. James has often taken advantage of his opponents' mistakes when he won his titles. Mistakes come more often when you are riding over your head trying to beat someone that isn't. Note James against RC outdoors all those times where he ended up on his head.
" I am not saying that I think that you are a pusssssy,"
"TRICK your a moron"
TRICK you're a moron.
Who is the moron?
Dude are you that much on stewarts nuts? I mean No rider this season has came from outside of the top 5 to win a race and RV did it from 9th place. caught stewart, pulled in, made an attempt for a pass right away stewart got scared/nervous and fell... RV CAUGHT HIM!!! how more convincing do you want?
Trick: the fact that no other rider had a title to their name (other than Larocco) in the perfect seasons is more about how dominating several riders were. With RC winning every outdoor title he entered for 10 years and MC winning almost every SX title he entered before that, not many others had a title, and those few retired. K-Dub not having any titles is purely a result of being about the same age as Ricky. K-Dub could have been a multi-time champ if not for that meddling redhead.
Anyone that still thinks JS is not the fastest rider out there is really dumb or blind.
However, this season he has been inconsistent, unlucky and he has made dumb mistakes that have put him where he is and yes that doesn't win championships which is what counts. But that doesn't change the fact that he IS the fastest rider.
No all you haters out there, give the guy credit for giving it all every week and giving us all a great show, and we the fans need to respect that and be thankfull for it.
Then do us all a favor Trick, quit making every story on this site a Stewie timeline against RC. Thats not what this was about, and you throw Stewie v/s RC stats on here. And you never addressed how ypou think Stewies comp that year was as good as RC's. How tough do you think K-Dub was 6 years ago?? The man was fast, plus DV12, and Reed was very fast outdoors. So dont hammer us with the RC/Stewie comparisons and blow up Stewie in every post like he was better(if he was he would have won at least one major title against RC dont ya think) if you cant take a little flak for it.
Pao... Being fast.. And even this is debatable as RV was faster on may other races than Stewie.... Is nice.. But so far.. Stewie has made an ass of himself.
Am a fan of him.. but objective enough to see, he's been more the clown of this season than anything else.
Of course.. respect for him remounting the bike.. And everybody is oooohhhh... Aaaaahhhhh What a guy.. Bullcrap! He's paid big bucks to be a rider... And that is what this sport is all about..!! U win or crash.. All part of the game.. He as did many other riders in the past have done this... That is what is expected of them.
bd200.. I reckon what trick is trying to point out... The SX wins of RC seems giving more credit than the many, many outdoor titles he has won.
In all fairness... SX has always been the prime attraction, so most riders seem to be extra focused when the SX season starts.
And I recall when I did watch those races... They seem pretty dull, as RC would just ride away with the moto win or overall win... And when you saw the top 10 after the race.. Many names popped up.. Who the hell are they? Where were they when the SX season was underway?
MX season was more af a redeeming effort for a rider who had basically screwed up his season in the indoors.
K-Dub.. Well.. I think he made some wrong choices.. Leaving yamaha for Honda.. Then a screwed up move at suzuki... Iron Mike.. He was relegated to a satelite team... Even though they had the factory support of Honda.. And I still think Honda played a dirty trick on Mike.. Reed was an embarrassment in the oudoors when he came to the US.. But he always admitted it.. His focus was more on the indoors... (I guess he had the same attitude as a Allessi.. If u are not too focused on something.. Do not expect good results).
Again.. Not taking anything away what RC has achieved.. I think RC was a pure racer and he raced SX & MX with the same dedication.. And as a result.. statistics will not lie.. He's earned the title the GOAT.. And used it as well to market his racing personality..
lol This is awesome.
This is why I love racing and not so much the "trick" sports with judges. You get to the finish line first, you win. You come across the line second, you get second. And so on. FMX is subjective and requires judges. What's funny is that with racing, all the judging still goes on (like here), it's just not official. Which is great! I'm very happy that a win is a win and a championship is a championship. And a fast lap is just that... a fast lap. I heavily admire JS7's riding, but he hasn't been riding like a champion this year. Sorry. Could he still be champion? Yep! But right now he's getting beat, straight up. He has been given the same opportunities (and then some!) as everyone else on that starting line. If he were greater, he'd be racing his speed w/o making mistakes. And overriding tracks? He's being pushed to his limits because he knows he has to ride hard to beat the competition. Regardless, he's making mistakes. Simple logic.
I have a tendency to root against a team/athlete/whatever when everyone hops on their bandwagon (I still enjoy the Dallas Cowboys losing... lol) but I do hope that JS7 rides to more of his potential so we can see some good battles. The guy does some amazing things. But being humbled is good for one's character. ;)
IMO, neither RD1 nor RV2 were given gifts. Their competition didn't step up. That's why we race. And that's what I loved about racing offroad. Show up, leave it all on the track/trail, and shut up.
Game on!
i find it mind boggling that everyone is so ready to change the start format. this is how it has always been and how it always should be. I know the racers wouldn't want it any other way. They have done it this way their whole lives. I know i personally would hate any kind of stacked start because the drop of the gate is arguably the most fun part of the race for the riders. Since when is motocross about getting the ratings on tv? We've always been a sport that was about not selling out and just being an extreme sport and besides, how can anyone complain with the action we have had this year?
Actually Bd200, my post, pointing out the person who called me a moron, was from a much more obscure section of this site (Christophe Pourcel On the Cover of Moto Verte). I just wanted to share it the rest of you, on a 'much read' newer article. Do you think kdub, dv12 and reed could have beat stewart? I dont. anybody else out there?
I definately think K-Dub could have beat Stewie. Especially 6 years ago outdoors. And so could have DV12 in his prime. those guys were very fast. And remeber, if it wqasnt for an injury during a photo shoot. DV12 may well have bearten Rc for a supercross title. So yes, he was fast enough. K-Dub did beat RC for a moto or two outdoors, so yes, he could have beaten Stewie in his prime also.
bd200 & trick... I believe if it wasn't for the stupid, stupid photoshoot... DV12 could have pulled it off, beating RC... Up to Daytona.. DV was riding good...
And K-Dub... He could have beaten anyone in his prime.. Huge talent.. Sadly never fully exploited, due to circumstances.
These are from kevin windham's wiki. As you can see, windham was no stronger against carmichael in 2004, than he would have been against stewart in 2008, had he raced the outdoors.
"Carmichael withdrew from the 2004 Supercross season for knee surgery. After a long battle with Yamaha's Chad Reed, Windham claimed 5 victories but still finished second to Reed in the title chase... By his standards, Windham had a mediocre summer and failed to win any races, finishing a distant third in the championship."
"2008 would be one of Kevin's best supercross seasons ever. He never once finished outside the top 5, and finished up the season with 4 overall victories, including the Daytona supercross. The Daytona race was one of the most difficult in memory, as torrential rain flooded the course, making for treacherous conditions. Windham would take the win after Chad Reed's bike quit with just a few turns to go. As the season went on, Windham would pressure Reed extremely hard, and proved to be the fastest rider near the end of the series, but ended up falling a few points short of the title. He again finished 2nd in the championship."
I cant say what would have happened, stewart against vullimen, but I dont think kdub would have beat him.
I agree BKR, same goes for reed and stewart. ricky ruined it for everybody.