Rapid ReaXtion: Shutting The Doors
Thursday, January 24, 2013 | 3:20 PM
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PrintTwo teams folding in one week. First, J-Star JDR Motorsports KTM, and now Chaparral Honda (L&Mc Racing). What's this mean? Why did it happen? Our staffers share what they know below, be sure to leave your ideas in the comments section below.
Jason Weigandt (Cheapmaster)
Before you condemn Larry Brooks over the collapse of the Chaparral Honda team, keep in mind what the team was supposed to be. During the entire run up to this program, in 2011, Brooks was assured he had San Manuel's big money as a title sponsor, and that would have easily covered the bill. Then, right before the 2012 season, San Manuel went through a management change and decided to about-face on the racing thing, leaving Brooks with a team, infrustructure and contracts, but without a sponsor.
Since then he's been trying to patch it together, but even last year's addition of Chaparral wasn't enough--Brooks told me in Phoenix they knew all along they'd need even more funding, and the money was getting tight. He had irons in the fire that weekend and hoped to have something new for Anaheim 2. We didn't see anything new there, and after the race, Shorty's works Honda had to be returned to the factory Honda rig. The team was no more.
Of course, Saturday also marked the end of Kevin Windham's racing career, but GEICO Honda people tell me they can't just bring Shorty in as a replacement. For one, Windham's bike is still going to be used by Windham himself in opening ceremonies each week, so it's not really available. Second, Short's full works bike is an expensive piece, and any team that wants to use it has to pay for it, and it's hard to find that kind of money mid-season.
As for JDR KTM, the seed money from that team actually came from the team owners themselves--Jay and his father Derek Rynenberg (hence the initials JDR). The Aussie family had actually made a killing in the fence business from the 2000 Sydney Olympics, so they could fund racing themselves for awhile. We've heard some other investments didn't go so well, though, and they couldn't keep shoveling money into the motocross effort any longer. It's too bad, because JDR was really building the right way, with a good crew and support. But once you don't have the money, you can't do that any longer.
For both, then, it comes down to this: they were each one big-dollar sponsor away from making it work. Same story we heard two months ago with Jeff Ward Racing, too. Even in a world where energy drinks have swooped in to save quite a few, a realistic look around the pits shows there's just not that much outside money coming in--and in this sport, there really never has been enough. Satellite teams have always had a tough time staying afloat, and what's happened here is, sadly, nothing new.
Steve Matthes (Big Spender)
We knew something was amiss with the L&Mc team before supercross started, the sponsorship money coming in just wasn’t what was going out. I did some digging around and confirmed some things but was respectfully asked to keep it quiet so I did. But there was something wrong, no doubt about it. Andrew Short even made mention to me that he was having trouble sleeping with all the team stress.
In these tough times, sponsors are hard to get and-newsflash-it takes a lot of money to run a program. Don’t worry, Short is racing this weekend in Oakland for a new team that has yet to be announced and for a rider like Andrew, he’ll be fine. I feel for the other guys on the team like Ricky Gilmour, Jeremy Hoyer, Nathan Alexander and the rest of the team. They’re the ones that are really going to suffer.
It seemed like a great thing when Larry Brooks teamed up with Jeremy McGrath to start a brand new team and on a factory Honda at that. Supercross.com was announced as a title sponsor (after San Manuel Casino dropped out) but shortly after the 2012 season, they bailed as title and the team was forced to the sidelines for a few races although Short himself was healed up from an injury and ready to go. Of course there was the storybook Seattle SX win in a van and then Chaparral stepped up in what looked like a good deal for everyone. But we know now that it was just a temporary stopgap deal to get the team through some tough times. It wasn’t enough to carry on.
And this announcement comes on the heels of the JDR KTM team announcing that they’re shutting operations down after supercross due to financial difficulties. They’re going to honor all the agreements through supercross and then this team will, like L&MC, shut it down leaving some fine people looking for a job.
I also know there’s another team in the pits that is barely hanging on right now with people not getting paid- it’s a bad deal for some of the people in the pits and although everyone means well, sometimes it’s just not feasible to go professional dirt bike racing. There’s lots of established programs that do well (Pro Circuit, GEICO Honda) but the new guys, guys like Mike Genova and Alan Brown, deserve credit for getting things going in a tough environment. I’m not saying the sport needs to do more but maybe there needs to be some sort of incentive for teams, a financial one, to keep people going who support the sport. Sort of like what NASCAR does with its owner points, although that sport obviously has a much bigger pie to divide wth huge TV money and all.
Anyway that’s for smarter men than me to figure out but I’m definitely smart enough to know that this week was not what we need in the sport.
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Sucks for them. I hope they all land on their feet.
LB is still a sack of feminine product imo tho
Seems it would make sense for Short to pull a DM18 and start winning and/or start running near the front like DM18 has done. But can he?
Party time is over kids - no $$$$$ means no more easy rides. Time to put up and shut up. Bad economy will find it's way to you sooner or later.
I'll bet the reason teams are struggling is because there are so many of them. There are more top-level teams running right now than ever before. I'm not complaining, the more the merrier. But there are only so many sponsers, and when there's a lot of teams, that money is spread thin. I know this is part of the sport, teams folding that is, but to loose three big teams before the seasons even half way over? Something tells me there will be more to come...
There's no money to made sponsoring a race team unless you have a product to sell to the fans that can justify it. Pro Circuit sells the majority of their race parts and Geico can sell people all types of insurance, so the money they spend isn't waste in my eyes. Something like a casino sponsoring a race team, however, always seemed weird to me, I don't go to casinos and there is no San Manuel anything by me, so what good was sponsoring a race team if 98% of the people who go to the races have little-to-no chance of ever stepping foot in your casino? I'm guessing Honda and Kawasaki will no longer be running their race teams in the near future, much like Suzuki and Yamaha. A smaller company like KTM, who's sole focus is selling primarily off-road motorcycles, can justify keeping an in-house race team.
This stinks!!!!!!!
Money is tight? Hmm. Can’t imagine what a more affordable bike could do. These works bikes are over rated and over priced and pretty soon the 450F is going to have a nasty rep as the bike that killed the sport. People need to put politics aside and get on bikes that do more for less.
Maybe it's time to re-think the "no alcohol sponsoship" situation.
This is not the place for a political rant, but the time is right.
Just think,, we have at least another 4 years of this....
@ Micahdogg, just 450's or four strokes as a whole?
sign of the times for sure, like the world economy there is no middle class anymore. stock bikes would be the first step to solve this and let that be what slows the riders down, and levels the playing field. I know it crucifies my favorite team (pro circuit) but otherwise the sport has become like formula 1 car racing and we have to accept the failures of multiple small teams along the way. I dont particularly care which way it goes, unlimited budgets are fun to watch
If MC really wanted to give back to the sport he would open up his well stocked checkbook.
@carlsbad - I believe alcohol and cigarette sponsorship is allowed (remember Jägermeister KTM a few years ago?), but they are limited in how many sports they can be sponsors of. If they're going to spend the money and can only do it in a few sports, it's going to be sponsoring something more mainstream than motocross.
350 2 strokes with the latest suspension and frame tech! That would sound great!
u wod think two guys like McGrath and Brooks wod hav enough clout to pull in some funding.i think McGrath needs to make a comeback tour for the last half of supercross n i garrantey that wod get funding...as for jdr ktm i just hope two talented riders like savatgy n stewart get good rides after supercross
Carlsbad - the 450F is too fast and a "new" 250 smoker would be plenty imo. The 250F is too expensive, but fits better than the 125's did. 125 especially in Arenacross = downright scary. If they would be willing to go even 150, the two strokes would probably be ok back in the little class. The four stroke is just bleeding the sport dry and can still launch out of any stadium. Why?
The money that Field is making off of ticket sales and TV sponsors, and advertising sponsors at the tracks, is not going back to the riders and teams. It just wrong that a guy can make a 450 main event or even an outdoor national and not make at least a grand, even in last place. Someone is gettn rich for sure. Also going to stock bikes, at least not completely stock, is not a good idea, look at Mike Byrne who broke a stock hub in a whoop section last year and got all busted up, these guys are on it.
This SUCKS - The Big 5 motor companies need to step in and help. I run a trucking company and I hire Owner Operators with their own trucks , BUT if they cant make a run to Texas or where ever then I have to get it covered with one of my trucks. If they want people racing their bikes then they need to help out a bit more. Thats just my take on it
I wouldn't expect much "bailing the team out" from MC. He never seemed to know much about the team in the interviews I saw over the past two years. And in Short's interviews, he only mentioned working with LB. It didn't sound like MC was around much. None of this may be true, but it's definitely the impression I got.
I hope Short ends up on a solid team so that he can get back to racing instead of worrying whether or not he will have a bike to ride. Good luck Shorty!
I agree with @Micahdogg. Some day, unless things change, we'll all be talking about how the 4-stroke killed motocross. I was at Pro-Circuit not long ago and you know what? You can buy a KX250F just like the pros race...for $38,000. I know people believe we'll never go back to 2-strokes, but if the buying public can't buy affordable bikes, the sport will die. Why do you think Yamaha & Suzuki have pulled out of racing? Because they aren't selling enough bikes to warrant the expense. In the late '70's, the big 4 were selling 1,000,000 motocross bikes a year. Now it's down to 100,000. A 90% decrease in sales. A LOT of that is due to the huge expense of buying and maintaining 4-strokes.
carlsbad is right - if they would let beer companies and cigarette co. back in things would pick up. Its the same as RED BULL - parents dont let their kids drink it but they still sponsor events and riders
Shorty. Dig into your piggy bank and buy your Honda from Honda ( lease ). And ask Geico to support you under the tent. If your results = or better KW's they can consider giving you KW's ride next season or outdoors. You can also mentor Tomac.
Can any one explain why that a $ $ hole Hansen got a ride for H&H and Shorty was left hangin?!?!?
Step up RCH and pull on Shorty!!!!!!!!! You know you won't be disappointed!!!
Where is the trickle down money from Feld? NASCAR spreads the wealth right? All the teams are fighting for scraps, it's not sustainable. SX is one hell of a show, prefer outdoor, but a full stadium and TV package has got to be bringing in BIG coin. These riders risk their health and lives. If Feld wants a show then there has to be some wealth spreading to the teams. Probably some other cost cutting measures for the teams, but that will only make a small dent. Also these big rigs with one rider criss-crossing the US and Canada make zero sense to me, but what do I know?
@mgwest949 - Sales are definitely dismal for motocross bikes right now, but the sales numbers from the '70s were before ATVs and side-by-sides came out. Those two took a serious chunk of the off-road sales market, but switching to four-strokes didn't do us any favors either.
Kudos to JDR for at least honoring their contracts through SX.
Can't say that for McBrooks.
Here's an idea.. .secure funding for the entire season BEFORE you decide to hire people and go racing.
The thing I find hard to understand is BIG sponsors (DC,Monster,etc) are not ligning up to help out Team MC....Jeremy McGrath....the king of supercross.!!!!..so, does this simply mean people just dont want to deal with Brooks??? or are times being tough to blame...or little of both???
Stewart parted ways with him....Reed has made it clear he doesnt like the guy.......San Manuel stayed on board with Stewart until he went JGR...then they sponsored SX in 2012...but "changed their mind" when Brooks came knocking again....
Just a thought, if you're a struggling team which consists of 1 rider. Maybe better management of your funds would help. Do you really need a flashy semi and a full works bike ? Consult with Chris Blose, I bet he has some great ideas !
this is not the time to point fingers at 2 strokes or 4 strokes, neither one of them killed the sport. the fact is that times are tough and no matter what we do, times are going to be tough for a wile. none of this has to do with what bikes are being run, and it wont help if different bikes are run. it is what it is.
Screw Windham and his transfers !! Who gives a rats ass.. You were good ,prasied and adorn. Move on already. Next you see him next year making a comeback. Dont think he was the first or last on that seen..Give the bike to someone that wants to ride !
next team to fold is MA 800 and Mr-Smart top ! LOL !
@killomoto
It doesn't seem that DC can or wants to throw in a big enough chunk of change to help and I think Monster would be in a conflict of interest due to their involvement with Kawasaki. The Brooks thing is a good point, but who knows for sure? Would be awesome to see Shorty take K-Dub's spot though. They'd be stupid not to make it happen.
Ask Obama for a 'bail out'. I am sure we can get some of that money being printed up.
Let's be real here.
Why does a guy like Short need a factory Honda? He isn't going to finish any better or worse if he's on one or not. Why waste the money on factory equipment that's not going to help in anyway?
Majority of these guys don't need "factory" equipment. Their results are not going to change. Brayton/Short/Grant/Chisholm/Tickle etc etc? All have had a shot on "factory" bikes, and guess what? They weren't any better.
These teams need to become more realistic with their goals and also need to learn to balance their budget. Best of luck to Andrew and others.
Or maybe Shorty can rides JS7's bike when he decides to drop out. Not likely though. I'm sure they blew the whole budget on putting their eggs in one basket and wont even be able to get to the races once he's out of vagisil.
Maybe some of these teams in the SX pits can fire some of the hotties in mini skirts and pay thier riders more.I went to A2 and you cant walk 10 feet without running across another pack of them. I think the privateers in pick up trucks even had some. They are eye candy for sure but most fans are there to see a race. Feld needs to step up and pay these guys for risking thier lives out there.
Does the AMA collect all the money for our sport? Including TV money? I know they dont pay out much to the riders! I love Windham! But he doesn't need a works bike for opening ceremonies. That just doesn't make any sence. Someone is definately bagging all the doe. It needs redistributed better to keep the sport growing.
You guys blaming 4 strokes are insane. If you think the cost of running a 4 stroke dirt bike is a bigger factor than a $700k semi truck and hundreds of thousands of dollars in employee salaries, travel costs and benefits are seriously dilusional. And in top of that bikes are far more production now than a great big chunk of the 2-stroke ere when there were such things as true works bikes. The bikes now are so far superior right off the showroom floor that they take a lot less to be full factory race bikes. That is a fact
Oh, and more on the specific subject here, Im really bummed for Shorty. I hope something good comes up for him
WyDawg921 - it killed karting even before times were tough.
@Verge, lets not be rash :)
I smell Bel-Ray !
I've never weighed in on RacerX before but wanted to share an all-too-familiar story on the scuttling of SX teams.
In the ATV motocross world there are no factory teams left, yet the real show — the action on the track — is just as fast-paced and exciting as the bike nationals. The talent is amazing. The speed is blistering. The competition is fierce. Yet literally only a handful of the top pro ATV MX racers have solid support, which means they can concentrate on shredding dirt for a living. The rest are working full-time jobs and hauling their own rides to the tracks, where they're turning lap times on par with the top dirt bike national riders.
Where is the support? Aftermarket companies turn a profit but not one big enough to pay salaries for riders, mechanics, drivers, team managers, trainers and the like. Yet the outside money was there a few years ago, enough so that the big Japanese factories were putting semis in the ATV pits and staffing two-rider teams.
Part of the problem in the two-wheeled world is the economy. Bike sales are slow because people have less disposable income. Not everyone is buying a new bike every year when a lot of people who do are financing it.
I think the crux of the issue, and why we're not seeing more full-factory support, has already been addressed by many of you. Really there's two primary reasons as I see it: the economy, and the cost of new bikes.
MX as a sport grew out of the everyman philosophy. Every man could pick up a competitive bike cheaply 10+ years ago and go race. Now today off the showroom floor bikes are fairly competitive, but to win you're going to open up the engine and suspension. That takes money, and four strokes make it even more expensive.
Factories don't need to spend millions on R&D each year to make minor changes that aren't always an improvement. How much does it cost in R&D to adjust a cam lobe by a degree or enlarge a port slightly — not to mention assembly line implementation costs — for a minimal seat of the pants improvement? And how much has minimal R&D upped the price of a modern four-stroke motorcycle? Our machines are top notch, state-of-the-art racing vehicles, but have the factories reached that point of diminishing returns? Is it more cost-effective to release model changes every other year (like Yamaha has done for 2012-2013), and will it really hurt the racing?
Comparing ATVs and dirt bikes is somewhat apples to oranges, but in the ATV world they're racing machines that haven't been updated in 4+ years. Like the 1990s, ATVs are being developed by the aftermarket. Let the dirt bike world do the same. Factories could save on R&D costs, spread that money out supporting teams and maybe lower the price of a new bike while they're at it.
The economy's going to make it tough until we're out of the wake of the recession, but $8K "advanced" dirt bikes are not helping the sport.
Promoters like Feld, the AMA, the Factories and the top teams and riders need to take a real hard look at reality. Bikes don't need to advance to the level of technology of Formula One or even NASCAR racing, where the racing tends to go away and the focus becomes more about the team, the rider/driver and the equipment.
Supercross is a great show that seems to be making big bucks. Rein it in and give it back to the common man before it just becomes a mechanized circus vacuuming up cash into one bag.
How profetic short grace s the racer x cover ... Go get um Ralphy
Im42mx - Eh, the full factory four-strokes are far more expensive than the old two-strokes were. Mitch Payton has said that he spends four times as much money each year on the engine development compared to when he was running two-strokes. A full four-stroke race engine that anyone can buy (cams, valves, valve springs, keepers, retainers, piston, porting, DLC wristpin and buckets, valve seats, matched cases, aftermarket ECU, complete clutch, isotropic finished transmission) will set you back around $3500-$4500. A full two-stroke race engine will set you back around $1500-$2000. Then four-strokes have a $1000 titanium exhaust system compared to a two-strokes $350 pipe and silencer. That's what anyone can buy. The stuff the factory teams use combined with the extra R&D money required makes four-strokes much, much more expensive. I own a 450 myself and love it, but lets not kid ourselves into thinking that four-stroke bikes and parts aren't that much more expensive now than two-stroke parts were; they are.
This sport no longer makes any sense to me. Do manufacturers really expect large quantities of people to spend that kind of money for a dirt bike?
I have raced and followed the sport for over 35 years and from a price standpoint it's absolutely ridiculous!
I think it boils down to selling the sport to companies outside the mx mainstream. RCH has Dodge and Sycuan on board with somewhat mediocre talent. GEICO seems to think their sponsorship deal makes sense and has stuck with it. Why not Progressive? They are known for insuring motorcycles. Unlike other sports many MX fans participate and ride or race themselves. Go to a local race and look at all the shiny new RVs, trucks, ATVs, UTVs, etc. I think any company tangentially associated with those industries would get involved if they were sold on it. Unfortunately the former racers running the teams aren't necessarily good at marketing.
@MX40, I see what you are saying, but here's the thing. From a consumer stand point you don't "need" to add all that bs to your bike. We do it because we want to. Maybe Im luckier than the average rider, though I doubt it. Ive never suffered a significant failure of any kind on any 4-stroke. So for me, the cost to ride has gone up with the cost of the bike. But so have street bikes, and there is no major change in technology there. Everything has been a trickle down from racing. Cars are more expensive, houses are more expensive and beers are more expensive. If you don't have the budget for a new bike you will buy a used one instead. I bought Motorcycle Superstores 450 ad bike a few years ago. It had every bolt on available on it and I bought it for $5k. There are bikes like that every where.
As for Mitch he spends that money of his own will to gain an edge. Blame the AMA instead. They could VERY easily slap both classes with very strict rules structures. Outstanding suspension is the #1 thing these guys need. Feeder class 250 riders do not now or ever "need" a 50hp 250f. As for the big teams they don't "need" a million dollar hauler. I road raced and raced mx up until last year. Road racing on a regional level I could get in the Top 5 on a BOX stock motored Gix 1K with a simple suspension revalve and pump gas. And Im not especially talented. Motocross is even more forgiving. The guys that are in 10th back to the non qualifiers aren't going to turn into podium guys because you give them a Geico bike. Fact. So the easier answer is forcing the teams into cost control. Make the field much more even. Lesser funded teams can now better compete and it betters the racing by narrowing the technology gap.
Malcom Stewart to team JSE7 suzuki for the outdoors
@ Im42mx - I'm with you, the average rider certainly doesn't need all that stuff, but the factories will spend untold amounts of money for 1/10th of a horsepower or pound of weight savings. It's funny that you found a good deal on a used race bike, because it happened for me also. I picked up Tommy Hahn's Suzuki RM-Z450 that he raced in 2010 for $8,000 with A-kit suspension, full PC race motor and titanium bolt kit. So far it's behaved itself, but I'm still dreading the cost of the rebuild I know will be coming.
The answers to keeping these things from happening are out there. Speculate all you want but it will take courage to bring a turn around with the direction this sport is heading.
MX and SX racing the last several years have done an amazing job at potraying the sport in a way that is not sustainable. The unit sales are not strong enough to support the efforts that are out there. The aftermarket is struggling to maintain their business...there are very little funds to expand their support of racing. It's not that we don't want to...we can't.
I started in the industry in the fall of 1984 and I've been through a few industry recessions over the years. Right now the industry is at it's most vulnerable point that i have been through. The money that has kept the remaining dealers afloat since this started in 2008 is running short.
The teams need to take a step back and re-evaluate their expenses...the rest of the industry has had to down size to keep afloat and the teams are no dirfferent. The racing will not be at all diminished if they scale back to smaller haulers or box vans. The fan support will still be there.
If the teams continue to milk the same industry sponsors for money it is not going to work long term. Someone needs to step outside the box and present racing to a wider base of outside sponsors. For McDonalds, InBev, UPS, etc...the $$ to help a modest team is a drop in the bucket and our sport is dead center in their target audience. How much has UPS earned from doing business with the motorcycle industry over the last 50 years? It's time for some b to b!
I agree with MX100, The TV coverage this year is some of the best and longest ever. Four hours of prime time on the weekend for A1. And the third race wasn't bad with at least a couple hours, but on two networks. The money is there. It's just lining the pockets of the fat cats doing the promotion and the TV coverage. The AMA sits back and lets these guys run all over the riders while they are risking their lives and some of them being crippled for life. The same thing has happened with the FIM world championship and Guseppi luongo getting rich raping the Euro riders. Maybe a lockout would help.
Does anyone else remember the "Production rule" that the AMA implemented to level the playing field back in the 80's? Think it was around 1985 or 86. Not sure what the specifics were but generally you had to race what was available to the public. No more $30000 factory bikes. Problem was the price of a 250 went from around $2200 to around $5800 in what seemed like overnite. So this is not the first time the industry has tried to "help itself"
Someone needs to figure out what brought companies like Wrangler and Coors into the Supercross business in the '80s, and Chevy Trucks to sponsor MX in the '90s. The energy drink companies have been great but they are really small potatoes compared to the beer business. All the fans are drooling over the Monster girls while they drink a Coors Light or Bud. Get the series sponsorships up where they can offer serious prize money so the teams don't have to pay big salaries. If the prize money was at MEC levels all year the teams could offset their costs with winnings. If the PGA Tour can offer their winner $1.5 million every week why can't SX payout $100K. Sales and marketing are seriously lacking.
I read some of the comments and had to comment again. If you consider that in NASCAR it cost millions to run a team and they are on the same TV you watch supercross on, how do you figure that the problem is the cost of the bikes? The cost of these bikes is maybe 60k-80k for an out of this world 450. How much is a NASCAR car? The profits are not going back to the teams. Its like everything else in this economy, record corporate profits and the "economy" sucks. Kind of like the recording industry when it got started. Lots of rock stars didn't get much. It wasn't until they figured out the business end of it that they got what they deserved.
All this talk about spreding the wealh down through the middle ranks sounds alot like our president.
The help needs to go to the guys who are fighting to make the show. Entry fees? Come on, these guys are the reason the promoters, teams, AMA, dirt worx, stadium workers, etc... make any money. Fans pay big $$ to come watch motocross RACERS. If they can't afford to show up, it all goes away.
Prize money? I believe it costs about $220 to sign up for an outdoor national. If you make it into the show and finish last, you get $440. 20th place nets you like $800. What a joke. I'm a local pro and if I had a tad more speed, I'd love to qualify for a pro national, but only because it's the best of the best and it's for my pride. But financially, it would make much more sense for me to travel around hitting the regional races with 10k pro purses. Like someone else above, the system is leading us to holding races with 8 dudes in it because that's all that anyone seems to care about. Not exactly a money maker. If I was a manufacturer, I'd want as many bikes as I can get in the main event. Throwing a little love to the 15-40th place dudes would go a long ways. Because lets face it, if I see 17 damn near stock Kawi's lined up on the gate at a pro national, I am going to think to myself that maybe Kawasaki has a pretty damn good bike coming off the showroom floor.
With many friends who are privateer level riders, maybe the focus should be more on situations like Team Gus. Or having satellite teams transport bikes for privateers on the same brand (of course, this would require having a practice bike at home). There's no need for 20-30 guys driving around the country all on their own. And there's especially no need for factory rig with one top ten rider driving around the country. I can't even wrap my head around how someone signed off on that. But hey, it's simple economics. Someone will find a more efficient way to provide bikes, transport, mechanics, entry fees, and/or salaries. I wish I had the money, because so many people deserve some help and I truly think it's feasible to provide it.
The factories are like socialist governments. They aren't efficient. They will phase out. Mike Alessi pulls holeshots on bikes we can buy. That tells me that a private team with great sponsor relations and marketing skills, can be very successful; if ran by the right people, not ex racers. Ex racers are good to have around for support, advice, testing, and coaching but not to run a business. Most didn't even finish high school.
@ tccmx7 - The pay outs in motocross and supercross have been a joke for years. Somebody is making a lot of money, and it isn't the riders or their teams.
Anyone thinking that the AMA (or whoever) has put the nix on tobacco sponsorship needs to understand the US Government did that. Tobacco makers are not allowed to sponsor any sporting events or advertise on TV. Seen any tobacco commercials lately?
Then the idea to blame 4-strokes? Go price out a new 85cc 2-stroke. If Mitch Payton wants to spend that much money developing an engine, that is his choice. GEICO Honda isn't spending nearly as much as him on motor development and is doing just fine. Plus,l pay attention to what Davi is doing on non-factory equipment.
Then, who brought up what golfers get for purses? That is simply the amount of sponsorship money available to pay. Golf is huge money, what the top guys there make in endorsements (and there are a LOT of them making it) makes what James, Dungey, and RV make COMBINED look like chump change. If SX ratings were to go through the roof and say, challenge hockey numbers (not a huge feat) the riders would all make big money and outside sponsors would be clamoring to sponsor teams. I agree that SX purses should easily be 3 times what they are, but until the riders get together and make the change, nothing is going to be different. Only once did the riders try to get together and that was due to a safety issue with the lights........and still there was enough riders that raced anyway to completely defeat the cause.
I think all the racers should have to race production bikes and only be allowed to upgrade to parts that anyone else racing can purchase as well but have a cap on how much can be spent, a reasonable one. I think it would make it more fair for everyone. I think some riders make to much as well,some make huge money some make a liveable wage, they should all make a liveable wage obviously top guys would make more but like any sport is it worth millions to play a game or race a motorcycle, the answer is no in my opinion it all out of control.
I dont want to hear they get paid a lot of money because it could all be over with an injury and they have to retire or whatever. I ride and race because its my sport and I chose to do it because I love it. Atheletes should be prepared to get a real 9-5 job like the rest of us.
@ MF637
Get a life douch'e 9-5 for real Lol Butf#ck
@ sloan who you calling a douche, guess you dont work a 9-5 job, so your either a idiot living on wellfare or disability or your some punk who thinks your going pro and your going to make millions racing a dirtbike and mommy and daddy pay for everything. Bottom line homo, if you dont think a lot of atheletes make to much money to play a sport your a moron. You probably didnt even comprehend what I was talking about clown. My actual guess you some old timer that thinks he just knows it all and your thoughts and opinions are the only ones that matter. You probably can barely even ride in the first place squid.
I see a lot of you guys always posting on here like sloan or slow or whatever he calls himself. Alot of you guys are real idiots, didnt realize you idiots owned this forum and only your comments matter. What a joke thats why I usually dont bother with this forum full of retard for sure.
It is called Tax and Spend Liberalism. Enjoy, the lazy and incompatent just got 4 more years......idiots.
@ sloan give Windams bike to someone who want to ride, thats about the dumbest crap of read on here. Are you for real Sh@t Stain, that bike aint going to anyone but maybe Tomac after the West is done. Smells like Bel Ray or maybe thats Sloan just stinking up the place. Your a putz!
Oh how profetic, Sloan gracing the cover of Racerx Magazine, then he wakes up and realizes he can only post on the online forum and he doesnt even know how to ride a dirt bike. Keyboard racer jack ass for sure.
Over-priced bikes are hurting the sport. With no big outside sponsors, how do you think Kawasaki pays RV's multi-million dollar, multi-year contract? You've got to sell a lot of 450s. Make the price more affordable and more people will buy.
Maybe a rider's union, like the NFL player's union, would provide leverage to the Feld and other big wigs who seem uninterested in rider safety and competition and more interested in the pit parties and their expensive passes.
Remember restrictor plate racing in NASCAR? Caused a big hullabaloo, but it led the sport into one of its most profitable periods.
MF637
You about done squid !! I thought so goodby!!!! dont respond back .. Punk
You probably voted for Obama and cry when he thinks about taking all your play toys away !! LOL Know it all !
I think MF stands for Mothers fool in the family 637 represents the only words he knows.......Internet troll !! LOL MOTHER l=ucker
Oh dont cry sloan I may just respond to every dumb comment you type because I can putz! And no I didnt vote for Obama dip wad. And FYI you appear to be one of the know it all- key board racers. Dont cry, hopefully the rest of keyboard junkies wont see you had to take some shit on your site because you want to run your mouth and insult people.
Feld should be made to pay every guy who akes the main and compensate the guys that try to so they can at least make it to the next race because without them there would be no riders to watch,Sad how these guys risk their lives and future to not make jack s,,t burns me up when i think and talk to my buddies about this issue,They need to do a strike for just one race and see how many cans of beans it opens up for the spectators that really don't know much about this sport besides watching it and liking it,Only if they knew then someone would be stepping up bigtime so the show could go on! And i went back to two smokes for the simple fact that they are cheaper to fix and i realised i had more fun on them so four stroke is parked not even for sale cause i can't get what i have put in it!
MF637
AL IGUAL QUE MI DICK USTED calamar
@ MF637
Basta de mierda! Troose ¿Quién cree que ganará el 450 este fin de semana
It's not all 'the economy' or 2-strokes vs 4-strokes. I'm a Baby Boomer, and part of the reason MX bikes sold a lot more a ways back was that there were a lot more teens/20's for a while.
I agree w/some of the commenters that Feld and/or whomever else (promoters, stadiums, ?) are getting rich off of the ticket sales and TV coverage - as far as I know, none of that gets back to the teams, riders, etc. Yeah, I'm sure you could say the same thing about football, but in pro football there aren't any 'privateers'.
As for you guys ranting about it being Obama's fault, all I can do is laugh.
Give up your comments are getting dumber and dumber. Who's the internet troll I see your garbage in here constantly idiot, go get a job or actually buy a bike and ride it. I knew a sloan once I think he just missed being retarded by a hair bet your at least a slow dimwitted hick.
@ BD25 IT'S ALL SET I get out to the stillwater area I'll meet up at Eskimo Joes.
They have the coldest brew south of the Canadian boarder..........
Hope I never See you on the track Sloan because I'd put you in the cheap seats I'd probably know you by your stench. I wouldn't be the only one looking to put you down though I'd bet.
MF637
I read some of your past post.. Cant spell worth a crap and your dialog has a lot to be desired to Omniscience dork.. You wont see me but I'll see you thru may AR..........MOFO get out of here
look for me at Oakland punk !!1 Gate D sEC 126 Trackside make sure you show!
You probably dont even hit the races you teen age punk !
@ verge, don't try to take our eye candy away........thems' fightin' words.
@ lm42mx & MX40, great discussion.
@ GravityWrider, that was a great piece. The AMA has left the grassroots for Washington D.C. and they are more detached from their constituancy than ever. That is the only problem I see in implementing (some of) the ideas in your post.
I think China is missing a golden opportunity on re-inventing the DT-1, Hodaka or CZ for this generation. "If you build it, they will come".
If J-pan got a shot across the bow like that, maybe they would snap out of their overpriced funk.
Let's remember how fast we went on our first bike, I scared the life out of myself for less than $500 (of my dad's money). How much is that in 2013 dollars?
Some great points on here for once (other than sloan and the other guy at the end here). You guys just relax and hope that your EBT cards work tomorrow :) . Back to the topic, IMO we might get some relief from this shittie economy and tyranny emperior that we have for a leader in 2014. Voting didn't work very well in November, but the next round we have to get rid of some dead beat liberals in Congress. Most losers that were rounded up for the last vote, well they rarely show up for the next round. Let's be better than fighting each other at the next supercross event, everyone that is here has alot in common with each other. Most of us are lovers of this sport and most of us work hard for our money. Just sayin...
WHY ISNT THERE ALCOHOL SPONSORSHIPS??? THEY SELL IT AT THE VENUE WHY NOT EMPLOY SOME RIDERS WITH THE MONEY
I feel bad for Andrew. He's too good of a guy to go through crap like this. Maybe Larry can go back to gay porn?
Oh, did you guys know Matthes was Tim Ferries mechanic? Or, that Steves little brother was "The Beaver" on the Leave it to Beaver show? I thought not...
Part of me hopes Larry end sup on the streets giving handjobs for cash.
Perhaps the way forward is a team salary cap with 250 teams having a smaller budget. Teams will then have to choose where to spend their money being on r & d or rider/staff salaries. In Oz they have such a thing in the football and it stops well funded teams buying all the best players.
Shorty and Dungey will be teammates this weekend
Quit trying to be NASCAR. Never going to happen. SX ticket prices are ridiculous, someone is making money at these events. What happened to the production bike rule? The factory bikes are pure works machines which makes it tough for these teams to compete. Even Geico can't support the cost of Shorty's bike. Who wants to throw money at something that will never pay you back? These guys take passion for MX to another level.
@pitbull
Couldn't agree with you more, we need to start making the sport affordable again. I remember Mitch Peyton saying that his operating costs quadrupled after the four Stroke revolution in 04. Not saying I don't love 4 strokes, but since they took over there have been tons of unintended consequences. Blame the AMA. That being said, I think two-strokes and four-strokes are both fun to ride, that why I have a yz250f and a yz 125 both ready to go any time I want to ride one of them.
And also I think that's bs that Windahm wants to use the bike just to do opening ceremonies, what is he gonna do? Just follow the series around all winter and do opening ceremony $hit? C'mon kdub let shorty ride that thing
There are some really good thoughts here (aside from the trolls and idiots who NEED to post).
The biggest issue (and not mentioned much) is the marketing aspect. There is not a lot of selling of motorcycle racing to the general public. As an long time fan I make it a point to know when and where I can see an event, but I have to look. There is an outdoor national (Washougal) 30 minutes from me and it seems that I never hear about it from the media. If the AMA (or Feld or whoever) is trying to sell racing to the public....it's not working. Major sponsors need to be sold on sponsoring race teams and events and they need to see that there is a large enough fan base to warrant their investment. And the public needs to be aware that motorcycle racing is entertaining to simply watch. Many people out there have no clue that there are local events ran on a regular basis. The existing fans know, but the general public is unaware of these events.
The sport needs to be mainstream before it becomes stagnant.......
Shorty's dad is my dentist. Maybe I can get in the office for a quick chat with him...
@Sloan I feel so insulted by you and I'm so scared. Thats right idiot, I dont hit the races very often maybe a National if I feel like it. Thats because I'd rather be riding or racing myself. Hey idiot, maybe next time you shouldn't be such an idiot when you feel you have to respond to someones post, then your buddys on here keyboard racing wouldn't have to see someone giving you lip. Oh and I've only probably posted on here less than ten times or so.
This may not be ONLY a 4 stroke problem - but it is a 4 stroke problem. 2013 KTM 250sx is $2000 less than 450sx-f. $800 turns that bike into a 300cc with plug and play 52HP. Tell me what any 450F is going to do better? When the 2 stroke reigned supreme, AMA encouraged development of 4 strokes. Now they are here, why can’t they encourage development of 2 strokes?
A 2014 CR300 smoker, that is literally KILLING it on the track, and msrp’s for $7099 would cause an increase in bike sales. Cheaper to produce, cheaper to maintain, lower operating costs for every team using one, more bikes sold – anyone see a pattern? It ain’t rhetoric when 2 strokes are selling and thumpers aren’t.
DAVEY SCROLL DOWN
I'm no genius but some of you guys on here are pretty ridiculous, especially in terms of McGrath. Leave him be. Would you go broke just so some other guys can go racing dirt bikes? It's not like he's a billionaire! He made a nice living in the past, lives nicely and he wants to keep it that way.
But yeah, go racing out of the back of a van if need be. The pit show does not count all that much in terms of placing in a main! (10-Eleven Mods or whatever they're called)
DAVEY, There's TWO BIG MAIN PROBLEMS in MX/SX:
Firstly, as mentioned above, someone is getting rich as these stadiums mostly fill round after round. Perhaps it's Feld, likely it's Feld. I don't know their overhead but there is $ somewhere there. EVERY RIDER in the night show should make $ by qualifying ... They're (likely Feld) shooting themselves in the foot as the lack of spreading the wealth undermines the development and entertainment value of our sport in a significant way!
Secondly, NO OUTSIDE sponsors. And I DON'T BLAME THEM. Sponsors often aren't treated optimally in this sport. They get a poor return (ROI!) for what they put in! Not nearly enough exposure! Ya know why NASCAR is successful? The cars are rolling billboards. Really! That's exposure! Longtime viewing exposure! On TV no less! Cheap TV advertisement! Yes, it's cheap compared to buying it from the networks.
The single biggest space of signage / exposure on a motorcycle is not the tiny fenders or shrouds, unfortunately, it's the RIDER'S BACK. Here in SX that is covered with a huge racing number. What the??
Change the stupid rules and allow riders to have sponsors on there backs. (We have transponders now and the rider's personal advertising exposure should be less of a priority.) Sounds like a silly simple suggestion but think it through .. haters blah blah blah yeah yeah I know. Doing that might make a huge difference. That is the only reason why Nascar originally grew - QUALITY SPONSOR EXPOSURE! Repeat that to yourself over and over.
We will never be Nascar but that's why they gained their momentum. ROI - Good advertisement/exposure for their MAIN STREAM sponsors. GEICO Honda is a good start.
Oh and economy bad, no $$ anywhere??? NOT TRUE. FACT - There is more corporate surplus money in the many, many $BILLIONS within this country as we speak. But if I'm the head of Johnson & Johnson, GE, Ford, Hyundai, McDonalds, Exxon, Apple, GNC, Mattel, Verizon, Canon, The Gap, etc, etc, etc, I would not put my dollars to be wasted on this sport I'm (personally) obsessed with either.
Thank me later.
@Sloan Did I read in one of your posts, something about you seeing someone else posting on here through your AR. I assume your saying your going to shoot him. Your a fool, terroristic threats dude for real.. RacerX should kick you off here, by the way your spelling and grammar blows just as bad as most on here. The clowns on here I tell you.
@ Micahdogg When Yamaha started the 4-stroke takeover in 98 it revitalized the industry. Not only did it bring a bunch of old timers back to the sport, but it also helped sell a lot of other bikes and everything else that dealers sell. What most people don't realize is that the big four make the bulk of their profits on their trail bike lines. (XR's,TT"s, KLX's and DR's) The biggest reason of the switch to 4-stroke is EPA requirements!! 2-strokes are illeagle to ride in Calif. and a few other states. 2-stroke Jet-skis have been outlawed in every state but two. It is important for the big 4 to do everything possible so that we don't lose all of our riding areas. 4-strokes are quieter and make much less pollution. Also older riders love 4-strokes and they are the demo that has the available cash to buy these bikes. When dad comes in to buy his CRF 450 he also buys a few XR's for the family. Making sure youg riders get into this sport is the only way you can keep any sport growing and not dissapearing. I love riding 2-strokes too, but if we want our kids to enjoy this sport like we have, we have no choice but to embrace the 4-stoke and keep the government happy so they don't shut us down.(I owned a Kawasaki/Honda dealership for 14yrs.)
@TWK1
Not sure what planet you live on but a 450 with aftermarket pipe is about 10 times as loud as a 250 2 stroke. We have had to exclude some loud 4 strokes from our riding areas because the sound of a four stroke just carries too far.
the whole two stroke vs four stroke argument reminds me of the guys in their honda civics arguing with the guys with their muscle cars two stroke=rice burner 4stroke= muscle car
@ Hamhead Thats not true, bikes todays are at lower decibals than they have ever been. Anyone can go riding with no packing in their silencer but you can't race it that way!! So why ride it that way? The decibal limit has been going down and the after maket guy are designing them to comply. You could also cut the muffler off your car but it will only make a bunch of noise.The last 250 2-strokes were running @ 98 dc. we are now at 92 and some places 94.
mx is dying...........bikes are too costly,(thanks production rule) riding areas are closing because of environmental and liability issues , medical cost........... sales have fallen over the years, its a dead horse
@TWK1
Your right they are getting better--The sound of a four stroke carries much farther however. When you are at a hare scramble the bikes that you hear from a long distance are the four strokes. Thats a fact. In New england its a big issue because most of our riding areas are relatively close to homes. People get pissed off when they here dirt bikes all day from their home. God hates 4 strokes! 2 strokes forever!!
Wow some good comments, but funny we are still talking about the same issue 40 years later regarding purse/start money. 2t vs 4t let them go head to head. Race teams are not comprised of sales and marketing, every other motor sport racing has a sales marketing team that brings in the money. Remember Toyota put a lot into the sport and could not get any riders at there dealerships when a race was in town. I live close to TMS and when NASCAR or F1 comes into town cars and drivers are every where across the DFW metroplex. SX maybe the local Honda/Kawasaki dealer might have a 10-15 mi meet and greet with some of the riders. Biggest surprise was CR seems he was in about a dozen different places. Other observation is teams are only looking at next year you want a corporate sponsor for 2014 you should have been talking to them in 2011 their sponsorship/budget programs are made years in advance case in point Im already working on 2016/17 budget projections. What missing in MX is people like Lackey, Hanna, Winert, Butch Lee without them and others the sport would not be paying what it is today. If you can't market and sale yourself then how can you market and sale a product for someone else.
Take care and look forward to some great racing today
OK....call me an idiot (I''m used to it...), but what happened to the "claiming" rule that used to exist? Was that an amateur thing only? I can't remember the exact specifics of the rule, so, somebody help me out here. You could claim it & buy it for like 90% of the value it sold new for or something like that?? I do remember it happening at mini races waaaay back in the day though. Some random kid ended up with a works bike that he claimed after the race, and the owner couldn't do anything about it. I think there was an article in RacerX about it....they ended up finding the bike like 25 years later in a storage shed on this guy's property.
I know this is a COMPLETE fantasy, but how cool would it be if everyone just conveniently forgot about that rule, and Shorty just walks up to K-dub's bike tonight at Oakland and tells the GEICO Honda guys that he is claiming the bike and will get them a check for $8800 ASAP. God that would rule. I know, I'm retarded. But I amuse myself though. It helps pass the time.
doug......... ask mickey boone about the claiming rule, circa 1976 ! bob hannah and marty smith could help you out! better yet go to mxworksbikes.com and read about the '76 125 national championship series ..... or ask jody......?
The spending has killed the teams. It's Obama economics. It seems each individual rider needs their own $900K brand new 18 wheeler now days. Fine wine tastes on beer budgets. The works bikes prices are out of control. Nobody should be racing anything you can't buy from Pro Circuit. They need to cut out all the fat. The racing will still be just as exciting. SX attendance is not going to drop because Shorty's bike travels in a $50K 5th Wheel trailer instead of a brand new $900K custom 18 Wheeler.
McGrath's 1995-1998 race bikes were probably not even as good as today's showroom stock bikes. People just like to see good racing. They don't care if your bike is a $50K works bike, or a $3,000 used bike.
Get rid of all the silly flashy 18 wheelers, $60K race bikes, and get back to the roots of just down home fun racing.