Ask Ping!
Friday, November 30, 2012 | 9:35 AM
ODI dates back to the 1980’s as the leader in grip manufacturing. Focusing primarily on the bmx and mountain bike industries through the 90’s and early 2000’s, ODI re-entered the motocross scene when they developed the patented lock-on grip system that eliminates wire and glue. Continuing to advance the way riders hold on to their bikes, ODI has worked closely with the teams they support such as Troy Lee Designs to create the product that is now being used by some of the top teams in the industry.
Tweet
Advertisement | Advertise with Us
Share
Comment
Email
PrintHi Ping,
So, there has been a lot of talk about Josh Grant's mom stealing his money as of late and there are opinions on both sides of the issue. Some people think that he deserved it since she probably paid a lot of money to get him to the level that he's at and, by doing so, sacrificed a lot too. Others feel that she took his money because she is a greedy scab that took advantage of a financial situation. I'm in the latter group. What do you think? Do you know what actually happened? The story is not very specific and it would be nice to know the truth.
Joseph
Yes, I'd like all my son's money please.
Full disclosure: I didn’t see the episode you are talking about. I do know the story, however, and I can’t even fathom what it must feel like to have your own family steal your money. Parents who push their kids in this sport so they can get paid in the future should not have reproduced. And kids who succeed and do make significant financial gain should throw a bone to their parents. To not acknowledge their sacrifice is selfish and immature. Money does crazy things to people. I’ve seen plenty of riders come into this sport as humble, precocious teenagers only to make an obscene amount of money and turn into complete a**holes.
My opinion is that Josh Grants mom should be ashamed of herself. Hopefully Josh can get himself in a good financial place again before his career winds down. If not, maybe he should go steal his mom’s car and sell it for diaper money.
PING
Hey Ping
I'm sure you have heard the saying, "the older I get the faster I was?"
Well, I'm 45 now and at best I'm a C rider. I'm getting impatient. How old do I have to get before I used to be Pro?
Thanks
Gibby
You have this shirt too, don't you?
I feel like I should start by saying you need to buy your tee shirts somewhere other than No Fear liquidation sales. After that it’s a simple mathematical equation. You are 45 years old and slower than a geriatric bowel movement, which aren’t too far off for you, by the way. So, find the lowest common denominator [your riding ability], multiply that by your testosterone level [likely basement levels at your age] and divide that into the percentage that your hairline has receded [I’m guessing 42%]. Multiply that number times 3.14 and you’ll get your answer, which is that unless you can defy the laws of nature and live to be 186 years-old you will never have been a pro. I’ll recheck my math but I’m pretty sure I carried the one.
PING
Hey Ping,
I am an old school motocross guy from Minnesota. I raced for many years back in the day when if you showed up on a four stroke you would have gotten laughed at. I made it to Loretta Lynn’s in 1989 in the 125C Class. I have not owned a bike for years. But this year I decided to get a bike to ride with my son. I had a tough time deciding between a 450F or 250F since I have never ridden a four stroke. I decided on a RMZ250. After riding it for a year I am amazed at the power it has. This gets me to my question: what were the manufactures thinking when they sized these bikes? I thought it was a big step coming off an 80 mini to a 125, let alone a 250F. When my son turns 16 I would not want to throw him on a 250f. I remember watching Ricky and Bubba ride 125’s and was amazed at how fast they could go on them; it took a lot of skill to keep your momentum up and go fast on an under powered bike. There were jumps that you didn’t even try on a 125 because they didn’t have enough power to get you over them. With the power of the 250Fs it seems very easy to go fast and jump everything. Just look at the lap times at the outdoor nationals; the 250s are very close to the 450s. They should not be going as fast as the 450s, that’s the whole idea of having a lites class. I think the lites bikes need to be slightly underpowered so it is a challenge to go fast. Make them a 175 or 200 and change 450’s in to 350’s.
With the recent tragedy at the mini O’s what will it take to get the manufactures and the AMA to reduce the size and horse power of these bikes?
Thanks,
Brian
Keep dreaming, fellas. It isn't going to happen.
Welcome back to the sport! It’s great to hear about folks getting back into motocross, especially with the economy the way it is. I wish I had a good answer for you on this but like most political dealings, there is a lot of hair on this issue. Yamaha introduced a 400cc bike in pro racing and had a great deal of success with it. For some unknown reason they decided to add more cc’s before selling it as a 426. That evolved into the 450 powerplants we have now. The original CC’s were put in place long ago, as I understand it, when four-strokes lacked the technology to be competitive against two-cycle machinery. Unfortunately, the current four-stroke engines make competing on a two-stroke a huge disadvantage. KTM tried the 350 but the other manufacturers aren’t going to change their plans now. We’ve made our bed and now we must get arm pump trying to hang onto it.
Go back and watch a race from the 1990’s or early 2000 eras. The racing was much more interesting throughout the pack because the two-strokes were much more difficult to ride. More mistakes led to more passing and ultimately closer racing. And I agree with you that there should be an entry-level class competing on 125cc machinery.
Regarding the recent tragedy in Florida, honestly, it will have little effect on motorcycle displacement. While a compelling argument can be made that modern bikes are allowing riders to go faster and fly farther … that’s what the consumers want. And what they want is what the manufacturers will sell.
PING
Did you like this article?
Check out TEAM HONDA AT DAWN
in our Latest issue of Racer X available now.
Forty years ago, Team Honda arrived on the American motocross circuit with a brand new motorcycle: the game-changing Elsinore CR250. Page 170.
Look for the verified symbol 
Impulse Studios
AMEN brother Ping!! Two stroke racing was WAY more fun to watch. I fall asleep watching 450 supercross and outdoors, I have always said that. I'm glad you and Guy Cooper agree on that, racing is changing quickly and not of the better from a spectator stand-point.
250s currently run lap times equal to the 450, meaning the law of diminishing returns effect is in play. If Villipoto got on a 350 and gave it time, could he go faster than on a 450?? I bet he could, and remember the mx des nations, 350s handed us our ass and don't give me the cry baby story about the track. Stanton didn't have a problem with it when he won.
I wished someone would open their eyes.
There will be accidents when you process over 2000 bikes in three days. I wonder how may laps were turned last week at gatorback. Watching go pro footage you can see holes/kickers in the faces. Godspeed jantz
"..argument can be made that modern bikes are allowing riders to go faster and fly farther … that’s what the consumers want.."
Sorry Ping but I disagree. What consumers want is to be able to fly as far and go as fast as the other riders they are racing. In other words it is relative.
Let's face it, 4 strokes have been a disaster. They raised the cost of racing a ton, new bikes, maintenance, both parts and actual time/labor they are much, much louder, and realistically you wouldn't dream of buying a used one unless you are prepared to spend a bunch of money on a rebuild.
This has taken the casual racer out of the sport. Even if someone can afford the increased expense it just means you have to take it so much more seriously and honestly, that may be great when you're 18 and your Dad wrenches on your bikes, but for a lot of guys we passed that stage a while ago and just want to have fun.
2 strokes are fun. They have a low cost of acquisition, they are easy to work on and they are fun to ride. Isn't that why we all doing this?
Btw, lowering the displacement of 4 strokes in an attempt to drop the speed will just drive maintenance costs higher. It is a bad idea.
Read in your best crochity old man voice.....Back in my day everything was harder and better....Everybody younger than me is dumb, lazy, on welfare and is a wimp.
Hahahah!!!!! Good stuff everybody.If everybody in SX gets hurt again in 2013 it probably won't be long before they lower displacement in the SX class.For the life of me I don't understand why the AMA won't raise the displacement for 125 250 two strokes.I for one would love to see a new YZ 200 and 400 two stroke.
Back in the early 80's 125's have had lap times compairable to 250's, as a mater of fact they had faster times than the 500's often. I was at a CMC Golden state race where Bruce Bunch had the fast lap time of the day on an 80. OMara had the second fastest time on a 125. 2stroke or 4stroke this will continue to happen.
In regard to the answer to question #2, speaking for the "elder gentlemen" among us, I say to you, Ping, your day will come.
Stewart used to have faster or comparable lap times to the 250's/450's when he was on a 125. So its not the bikes its the will of the rider. No matter if we went back or stayed where we are the lap times between the classes would be close if not better. What i do agree on is that it is harder to go faster on the two strokes. They require a lot more skill.
it isn't the size of the bikes....its the size of the jumps. less jumps more turns = better racing safer tracks.
"that’s what the consumers want. And what they want is what the manufacturers will sell."
OK KTM, I want a 440 to 500cc two stroke. If anyone can do it, you can.
Think about it in the larger picture.. There will always be ONE person like a James Stewart, or RC that can turn a lap faster on a little bike, but that's rare rare rare. If you take the AVERAGE lap times from a 125 of all 20 riders vs 250s, then do the same with 250vs 450, you will see that the gap has been cut in half.
And James Stewart never turned a faster lap on a 125 than RC did on a 250. He got within a second but that's it. At Texas last year Baggett was a half second faster than Dungey and Reed...
This isn't an arguement, look at the results!! It's easy to blame the economy but why are other sports absolutely thriving?
A two stroke engine is a superior race engine any way you look at it and I will argue that all day long and never lose. And don't go down the efficiency road either, both motors are only 25% efficient and a two stroke is more efficient at peak.
@rickamatuzio
I bet if you do some digging you will find a track where Stewart on a 125 had a faster lap time than RC on a 250. A tight and rough track favors a liter bike, stoping and corner speed is hard to overcome.
They could make the rules as simple as possible: 125-250 and 251-450. Remove all mention of 2 or 4 stroke. I think 4-strokes would still win initially at the pro level, but if KTM or one the other manufacturers jumped in, and a top rider was aboard, the 2-S could shine again.
This would never happen, but a guy can dream.
http://www.motoxaddicts.com/2012/06/14/lap-time-comparison-charts-high-point/
One of the great things about MX is the fact that for every advantage there's an associated disadvantage e.g. bigger motor/more horsepower= more weight, more effort to ride fast. smaller motor w/ less reciprocating mass= easier to ride but less horsepower. Taller riders are better in the whoops but worse in corners; shorter riders are worse in the whoops but better in corners, etc.
The fact that whether it is 125/250 two strokes or 250/450 strokes, running the same lap times is irrelevant because each rider/bike/displacement has their advantages and disadvantages.
Mr. Moto that's awesome, I've never seen that. MIT, its possible but I always check for that and I don't remember Stewart faster, but I don't remember him very close. Bob, I totally agree, and Rg that's exactly right. Here's what's great about MX:
You can take Carmichael an put him on a stock production bike, and I promise you be would still win a national in his bike because of his talent. So RG is absolutely correct because here in minnesota we also have snocross, which I tried a few times. In snowcross, regardless of how great you can ride, the sled is the ultimate indicator of your results. They put tons of testing into the sleds cause the stockers suck for snowcross.
I was beating Tucker Hibbert most of the time in D23 Mx every weekend, yet he made me look like a C rider when I lined up with him in snowcross. (He is a super great guy off the track and very friendly contrary to what people hear).
I only care about 2 things pertaining to Mx: affordability at the amateur level. Tight bar bang racing at the pro level. It's my belief (and I could be wrong) that the bikes are the cause of both declining. I'm glad other people agree because I have been so outspoken, I'm not trying to be Debbie-downer or a jack-ass.
Honda of Japan used to absolutely take THE MOST PRIDE in the CR250 over any other product Honda ever made. It's a shame its gone..
I believe in cycles, and I believe 4 strokes will inevitably fail in time. I know Ping tested an electric bike, so lets be careful what we wish for, that would really suck.
Ps, I don't hate four strokes, I have a 550hp 427 in my camaro, I love engines and I'm Motörhead.. But man would I love 8 expansion chambers sticking out of my hood making a 1000hp as I went down the street burning 100:1 2stroke oil in my car. The neighbors looking out the window at the evil sound wondering WTF who is that jack ass!!??
rickamatuzio please send pictures of that futuristic Camaro with the 8 cylinder
2stroke, maybe just send me a T shirt Thank you
@tonewall...That type of racing already exists. It's called TT I thought you were the man up type but I guess any jump larger than a double cheeseburger makes your sphincter weld shut.
rickamatuzio, that stuff doesn't belong on the street.
all i can say is the dude shoudve gotten himself and his kid a two stroke they would be much happier
The AMA already has 250 and Open classes (non engine type specific) in amateur racing. They just need to adopt it in the pros.
Hey Ping, I hate to disagree with you but I'm gonna disagree with you. Current four-stroke engines are not what make competing on a two-stroke a huge disadvantage. It's the displacement advantage that four strokes get. Bottom line.(125/250=100%, 250/450=80%)
It isn't the displacement, it is the delusion that you have that you can pilot a raging bull off a pile of dirt and safely crash it back to earth onto another pile of dirt without injury hundreds of times in a row.
The real problem is people thinking that they are being relatively safe. You are not safe when you are jumping. You will crash. It will hurt every time. Embrace this concept. The problem is you (and your decision to do whatever puts you at risk)and not the bike! Take responsibility here, people!
We ride, we crash, we get hurt. Stop whining, heal up, and then do it again.
Big Ugly most of the 250 riders stayed healthy all year indoors and out.Plus they seem to push harder.
Do some people really believe that these guys got hurt in SX because they can't handl the power of the 450??? Really, I hate to be mean but, get a clue.
the yz 400 came out in 1998 . fourteen years ago. time to get over it. you can race whatever you want 2s or 4$. it is sad that the days of a kid working hard ,saving his money, buying a bike and buying a truck or van or car, equipment etc..without help from his parents is gone. alot of my friends started that way. how many lawns do you have to cut to save enough to buy just a bike? you can get into mx cheaper by racing a two stroke. but don't forget they killed the 500 hundred class because no one wants to race a heavy overpowered bike. isn't a 450 a heavy over powered bike.
@Rickamatuzio- I too, am from MN. And a snocross fan. You sir are crazy just for trying it! Man, did you ever think about getting landed on by one of those sleds with all those studs? lol That is just crazy! But it does look like the most fun a person could have. Also, I have a 1968 Dodge Coronet R/T with 550 hp. (and a 125 hp shot of NOS) No plans for a two stroke in my future! So this begs the question, do you have sleds and ride these days? And what part of Mn. are you from? Perhaps we should try to meet up for a ride? From my house, we could ride through Spring Creek Park, it's about 30 minutes away and offers some awesome riding and scenery. Just a thought. Course we need snow first. Been asking BD25 if he wants to come up for a ride sometime, as he has never rode a sled. He's from OK. ya know. Maybe we need to work on this?
Magoo, your exactly right. I thought we established that.. It's my whole point. Allowing double the displacement has rendered the two stroke inadequate (mostly in regard to getting holeshots but lap times as well). That's why if they cut the displacement limit to 350, and dropped some wording as BOB suggested, everyone can race whatever they want in a single class.
Sometimes it's not easy to just "get over it" if the decision to make change was flawed or wrong to begin with!! 4 strokes were made front stage because of the idiots in the EPA, not because they were better. If that were the case they would have been dominant 20 years ago.
Motocross is much harder than snowcross, and 1000% cheaper. They can't switch to four strokes In snowcross cause they would have a serious weight issue which is already self destructive as is.
Yes, I'm saying people are hurt because of 450s at the pro level. Did you manage to look at the injury report on racer x last season? When 52 racers are laid up at once I think it's a signal. Jeremy McGrath, Stanton, bayle, ward, all those era had careers semi injury free (i know there are exceptions but 52 people werent hurt). Name a top rider since 2005 that hasn't missed season after season. (I can think of only a few).
Not that anyone cares but I have some cool stuff from the 80s in a file cabinet from Yamaha and Ski Doo. They were making 125cc two stokes for ice racing, these motors were making 80hp at 24,000 rpm. They were having crank failures of course, and testing different oiling methods.
We tested two strokes from 5:1 - 1000:1 oil premix. Interestingly, at 300:1 we could run a Chainsaw wide open for 2 days straight, no failure. Also ran a bombadier fire pump wide open for 2 days at 300:1 and it was perfect. Even 1000:1 with special expensive additives with NO FAILURE piston and crank was MINT after 24hrs wide open and the people calling the police about the test!
Mixing oil at 32:1 has caused all kinds of problems resulting in two stroke demise.
Most people think they are protecting the motor more, when they are backwards. Mix you oil/fuel at 10:1 and I guarantee you it will seize. The EGT will climb to 1450 quickly because more oil means less fuel passing thru the jet, meaning a LEANER fuel mixture.
Maybe one day, with this new injection technology two strokes will have another shot. We already tried to save them by pushing 100:1 oil but the public wouldn't go for it, now look where we are at.
This is a very interesting topic, and obviously there is a HUGE amount of controversy surrounding it as well. I really just wanted to thank everyone who posted their opinions here - regardless of your stance on the subject, the fact that everyone here has the ability to take a step back and look at things from a higher level, and then form some very compelling arguments based on their experiences is honestly really great to see. People that are actually interested in doing what they can to not only keep the sport alive, but to also help it grow. Again, great thoughts by all. Based on what I've seen, it seems obvious that this is a 100% legitimate argument, and I don't think the factories/sanctioning bodies will be able to just keep ignoring all of these arguments forever (but, judging by their actions in the past, I could be wrong about that one....!). For myself, I believe both rg807 and markymark720 posted one of the most compelling facts that is severely impacting the sport: the cost of new bikes. All the up & coming mini-stars, pros, etc. just can't relate - it's just impossible. They don't have to scrimp & save to go out and buy a new bike, then make it last a few years. The current attitude among the top up & comers as well as pros regarding bikes just sickens me....they treat "getting new bikes" like it's absolutely NOTHING. When the other 99.99% of the population would kill to get ONE free bike, let alone several every year. To me, the average working man, it just kind of feels like a slap in the face every time I hear a pro talk about getting bikes as if it's like going to 7-11 to buy a pack of gum. And then, the cost! What are the manufacturers thinking?? No wonder bike sales have dropped so drastically. Take a look at the car market, boat market, whatever other market you can think of. The cost of a new bike has spiked so high, so fast, that it's just not feasible for a guy like me to just waltz down to the dealership and plunk down $8-9k for a new bike. Especially when not that long ago (what, only 6-7 years ago?), you could have walked into that very same dealership and gotten a brand-new 250 smoker for almost HALF the price of a new 4-stroke. I just don't understand how this mentality makes sense to anyone currently manufacturing bikes. And then they wonder why their sales have dropped...it's just my opinion here, but I believe the next 4-5 years will be pivotal to the future of the sport of motocross. Something has to give somewhere, and I really, really hope that motocross doesn't end up dwindling down to a tiny level (compared to it's current level) because of all of the problems that have been discussed above. I love this sport so much, and I just (personally) don't have a good feeling regarding the direction it's headed. Now, can somebody float me a loan so I can get a new bike? The last new bike I purchased was a 2005 CR250, which I (tried) to ride for a year against 450's (then sold it). Since then I haven't even ridden a bike! I can't afford to get the new KXF450F I've had my eye on....
All valid been around bikes for 40 plus years showes my age. last bike new bought 2000 yz $4860... in pa Gibsonia cycle off Frank he was a good friend of family and sold out back then. New guy wouldnt honor the deal went by my house and new shop would cause they knew I was a good local guy.. Retail I think was $ 5200.00 give or take... Had 3 bikes then 4 2=250 2=125's alot of money Trailer all extra's 2 different sets of everything for bikes about $ 60,000... made a little money but was way past my prime. I couldnt imagine it now... Just to sit around all day for a couple of classes and go a couple of laps... I did some OMA GNCC races alot of riding 3 hrs and your on your way home... Just ride on my property for fun and its fun............A lot less hassle .Most people do not have big properties so I feel for them .... and with the sue happy crowd you have to sue for medical if someone really gets hurt.................I hate to see the demize of the sport also but it is getting to be less people racing because of the cost....... If they made 2 strokes at what they were about half I say there would be some resurgence in the sport. But since the crash dont care who says what ALL MOtorsports have been down and until something chages in the Us Govt for get it ... It's just a different world today !
Thanks Doug! I agree, it is legit but I've learned most people don't care or think change can happen so I try to keep my trap shut.
The reason we vote, protest, speak, ride, and care is because change is possible. It is a different world today and it sucks for the most part. I was watch an old movie called THE CAR from 1977. The sheriff took his kids to school on the bike on an enduro bike with no helmets, laughing they were having fun. I can only imagine now that some left wing fruit cake would have a field day with that, and send him to jail for child endanger. I never wore helmets riding my ten speed as a kid, and guess what.. I'm fine. The world is evolving, by people who complain and are immersed in fear. I'm not advocating no helmets, I'm just making a point.
rickamatuzio, again, very well said. I really enjoy being able to have a discussion, or even an argument with someone who completely disagrees with me for that matter, on an internet chat board, with an individual who possesses the patience/wisdom/intelligence/whatever to actually take a step back and look at the big picture, as well as having the integrity to not just start throwing random insults out there (which seems to be the pattern the majority of folks follow these days). I admit, sometimes it is hard to ignore emotions when posting opinions regarding a topic you feel very passionate about. However, for myself at least, when someone just throws out a bunch of random insults because their opinion differs from mine (even if their opinion is completely valid and should be considered) there's no way I'm going to actually try to see the argument from their point of view. But, when someone takes the time to reply in a well-thought out, clear, concise manner (such as your post), it truly can lead to some serious thinking by those who read it, and can even lead to a change in opinion, or at least open the reader up to the idea of looking at an argument from a differing point of view. The one thing I do see from those posters who insist on continuously flaming each other back & forth is an abundance of passion for the sport. Although sometimes a little bit misguided, I don't think the underlying passion should be ignored. That kind of love for the sport has carried it through the rough times in the past, and is what we still need in order to get through the tough times now & in the future. Anyways - again, posts like yours are truly a refreshing thing to see, hats off to you. I can only hope that others will take note of the example you've set!
I've seen that movie as well....it seems almost unreal compared to the times we live in now! What you mentioned reminded me of the last time I was in Europe. I got to know some guys my age in Italy very well and ended up asking them what the first thing that came to their mind was when they were asked about life in America. The very first thing I heard was....."all you people do is try to sue each other!!" I had to laugh....but it's true. I just watched the movie "Moonrise Kingdom", and although I'm only 35, that movie made me wish I lived back in the 1950's. If you crashed and hurt yourself because you didn't wear a helmet, it was your fault. Period! Kids in the Boy Scouts could actually possess a Swiss Army Knife and not go to jail!!!
The Dollar vs. Yen is killing MX bike prices. Compare Yamaha and KTM 2-stroke pricing to 4-strokes. Not much difference. 2013 YZ250 2-stroke Msrp $7150.
Chinese mx bikes anyone?