An Honest Look: 250 MX Points
Thursday, September 27, 2012 | 10:00 AM
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"He put his aggressive tactics to the side and banked on a title cashed in out of consistency and it flat-didn't-work. It was his last "
.I really think the aggressive guys have more titles over the yeras then the consistent guys.
The biggest foundation for that theory BillC is RC, but he was a freak in being crazy aggressive and consistent at the same time. Barcia wasn't holding back and playing the "consistency" card, he just wasn't as good plain and simple. At the pace everyone is going the past few years, being the aggressor gets you injured just as much as it gets you victory. Dungey is perfect proof that now these guys need to start using their heads when racing more than ever, because they're all going as fast as eachother now. Consistency is going to be the new formula at this generation's pace and depth of talent.
You call what Baggett did unaggressive?? RV??JS??
Actually BillC, I would say that using RV and JS as your examples shows that consistency is just as important as Agression. RV has the same number of big bike titles as RD, with RD having 1 less year on the big bikes, JS has the same # of big bike titles as Reed doesn't he?
Also, I believe you and a few others were sayin that Baggett was managing the last couple races to maintain his points lead to win the title. Baggett also saved himself the 1st half of most races and took him a while to get in his groove. The couple times he wasn't the fastest guy on the track and tried to force it he crashed. Baggett was simply Better on a more consistant basis than any other 250 rider this year, and that showed with him winning his 1st Chamnpionship.
To me, I think winning a title will vary on the type of rider and there mental makeup. JS and RV simply cannot take a 2nd place, they are willing to go 100% all the time. RD is consistant speed start to finish no matter the track or condition, he doesn't seem to speed up or slow down. But because of this it looks like if he isn' the best that day, he will settle into 2nd or 3rd whatever it gives and not force it. Kinda like live to race another day.
RC is not comparable to any current or past rider.
Wow, another Matthes' biased publishing. EnOUGH WITH THE DAVALOS BASHING. Steve, why do you forget the 08 toronto Supercross where martin smoked everybody????????? and why all the trashtalk on Jason Anderson??? you'll trash Jason anderson but praise Wil Hahn who in my opinion hasn't done anything that special in all his years being pro. get it together.
And don't get me wrong, I was cheering for Tomac to make the run and snag the title. I thought it would have been hugely Ironic with Baggett and Barcia going to Lommel if Tomac managed to make the run for the championship at the end of the year. Its simple Baggett is better. No I'm not a fan of his, but I sure as heck respect how he rides. But I do think he needs to get better in the soft stuff.
Baggett is just straight up faster BillC.......he's aggressive but not risking life and limb to go that fast, and toned it down when he had to chasing the title. And to add to what Not4Show said, along with Dungey having the same titles, in his whole pro career he's only broken a collarbone. Says a lot about his approach. The class is so stacked with everyone there now that going for every win at all costs is no longer the smart thing to do. You have to pick and choose your battles with that much talent at the front. Going for every win is respectable, but not smart if it means riding over the line.
I am not saying it's 100% balls out every moto, I am say the aggressive guys (over all) like RV, JS ect have more titles then the other types of guys. EVERYONE even RC backed it down when it made sence but most of the time he was on it. I really don't think Barcia was doging it either all of the top 4 and top 5 sometimes were flat out. My point is if you put RD in with them 5 guys his consistency approach would not have worked because all 5 of them never got hurt. It just seems the consistency approach only works when the other guy gets hurt. I really feel RD will have a hard time in SX next year with all the new aggressive young guys moving up, RD is going to have to ride outside is comfort zone I think when he gets a bad start because it will be hard to make top 3/4 now so you can lose a lot of points now if you hold back, Insted of a 4th last year you may be looking at a 6th or 7th now. You guys are onny looking at the last 4 years anyway, I am talking last 30+ years. does any of that rambleing make sence?? LOL
Baggett is just straight up faster BillC.... Why is that Retardcross ??
.The answer is because he is willing to push that hard, He is More aggressive. They are all in shape, They are all young, they are all healthy but Baggette will hang it out more, Thats why RV has over 15 SX wins the last 2 years and RD has 3...RV is more aggressive than RD, RV is not a lot faster just way more aggressive amd aggressiveness = Speed.
BillC,
I think the aggressiveness and injuries tend to run together, If you are talking about passing styles ask weimer if Dungey is ever aggressive? He has it, but just doesn't use it very often.
Comparing RV and RD is a great example of the difference in styles. Yes RV has 15 SX wins in the last 2 years Dungey has 5, RV has 8(ish) 2nd finishes Dungey has 15. But add in 2010 and you have RV at 22 and RD 11. But then again, in the last 3 years RV has missed 48 mx motos and 6sx races + the crashout in St. Louis in 2010. So that leaves comparing MX moto wins RV 9, RD 48.
But anyways, this thread is about 250's and simply put Baggett, Methodically and consistently pounded everyone this year. Even my favorite riders. He got it done in his 3rd full year when 4th Year Barcia and 3rd year Tomac melted under the heat.
bagget was faster, enough said
What good is your aggression when you spend half the time you could be racing on the couch?
This RD vs RV argument is old news, kinda over it. Certain people love to discredit Dungey why presenting certain facts and stats. The reality is that all these little theories and race win counts don't mean sh*t, they race for championships and he is getting it done consistently while the others crash themselves out of contention every other series. The end result is all the same regardless how you get there. Championships are what count, all there is to it, and RD is getting it done just fine for someone 22 years old. And even better, he'll be racing for wins still when the others are walking with a cane.
Comparing RV and RD is a great example of the difference in styles. Yes RV has 15 SX wins in the last 2 years Dungey has 5, RV has 8(ish) 2nd finishes Dungey has 15. But add in 2010 and you have RV at 22 and RD 11. But then again, in the last 3 years RV has missed 48 mx motos and 6sx races + the crashout in St. Louis in 2010. So that leaves comparing MX moto wins RV 9, RD 48.
.So there is the proff, RD won a lot more in 2010...why because only RV was there all year, so that makes my point. next year when the class is stacked it will be much harder for the less aggressive rider.
.
Retardcross ...You over looked my point about WHY baggett was faster!!! You just don't want to admit WHY he is faster, you are just happy to say Baggett was faster.
"What good is your aggression when you spend half the time you could be racing on the couch"
.I laugh at that one. You act like RV is out of control!!! His acl this year was a fluke!! 2 MPH tip over. before that 2 SX titles and 1 outdoor title. The crash in 2010?? bade track, concrete showing, many guys complained about, crap happens. The other knee was from his mini days. So tell me how he is out of control crashing all tyhe time. You have to remember a lot of getting hurt is LUCK, RD has had many crsashes the last few years that could have ended his season but luckly he was not hurt. do you at least agree with that?
"What good is your aggression when you spend half the time you could be racing on the couch"
.I laugh at that one. You act like RV is out of control!!! His acl this year was a fluke!! 2 MPH tip over. before that 2 SX titles and 1 outdoor title. The crash in 2010?? bade track, concrete showing, many guys complained about, crap happens. The other knee was from his mini days. So tell me how he is out of control crashing all tyhe time. You have to remember a lot of getting hurt is LUCK, RD has had many crsashes the last few years that could have ended his season but luckly he was not hurt. do you at least agree with that?
Baggett is a faster rider, that's why he won, the same way that Dungey is a faster rider than Alessi while being less aggressive than Alessi. Getting around the track faster than someone isn't always because of aggression, a lot has to do with line choice and conditioning which both Baggett and Dungey are known for. There's a reason Dungey doesn't "look" as fast, because he doesn't look like he's trying as hard as he takes the smooth route around the track. RV's fluke crash is an exception I'll give you that. His crash in 2010 was rider error and could have been avoided, Dungey did. RV isn't always out of control but you will see him out of control a lot more than RD that's for sure. More chances, more risk. You seem to forget I'm an RV fan first and foremost, but I still get sick of hearing people essentially saying Dungey is getting his titles handed to him because the other top guys can't stay healthy. They all race the same tracks, the same weekends, the same conditions. Luck is part of racing but so is mitigating risk. What Dungey is doing is not a fluke or lucky by any stretch of the imagination. By the way, my couch comment was sarcasm, but at the same time the aggressive guys do a lot more sitting on the couch than the more calculated guys. Reference RV, JS, RD, and CR who had two major uncharacteristic crashes in 2011, one resulting in major injuries. Is it coincidence he was riding better and more aggressive than ever and had his most memorable crashes ever in the same timeframe? Absolutely not.
Some of getting hurt is luck, some is not. But if you watch a highlight reel of RV's crashes vs. a highlight reel of Dungey's crashes (if there even is one) it's pretty easy to see why RV is hurt more.
"Dungey is a faster rider than Alessi while being less aggressive than Alessi"
. Bad example, Alessi is not the same calaber rider as RD, Thats like saying an "A" rider won every "C" class moto without breaking a sweat!!
.There are only 4 (till next year) guys that are top teir, RD,RV,JS and CR. Also I NEVER EVER said RD is not fast, Outdoors him and RV are as close as you can be but RV's aggression gives him a slight edge, That edge gets a little bigger in SX because it takes more aggression. Like I said before if RD holeshots he is hard to beat but start him outside the top ten and he aint going to win but RV can and has.
."His crash in 2010 was rider error and could have been avoided, Dungey did" Sure it could have but RV was behind in points so he had to push it so that is not that same as RD maybe holding back a bit on a bad track because he has a points lead. In RV's posion at that time he had to go for the win or it was over. You don't see that?
.Some of getting hurt is luck, some is not. But if you watch a highlight reel of RV's crashes vs. a highlight reel of Dungey's crashes (if there even is one) it's pretty easy to see why RV is hurt more.... Maybe yes maybe no. a crash is a crash. I have been hurt worce in an easy crash and rode away from a few wicked one's so you can't tell me you know by watching a Vid. Some guys seem to get hurt easy. Like I have said before look at RC, some EPIC crashes and un hurt. HOW?? I can onky say luck!!
why does every column become the "BILLC" show? Hey BILLC, we all know your the fastest keyboard racer and also the biggest nutrider. If deano and Rattray were racing outdoors , they would have smoked your lil' bam bam too. Pourcel would have waxed him too
The 250 class was Impressive to watch this year!! The top five guys rode a frantic pace each race and we had some thing to talk about the rest of the week...
Geico Honda has big team and even bigger expectations. Barcia got his starts and led a lot of laps, but in the end was not the fastest rider..Tomac poor starts, led to some great come from behind rides, showed some incredible speed and endurance but in the end he needed just a little more speed and a bit more endurance..Bogle, hurt right off the bat and never got back to what he expected from himself, which is a lot and I think his mental game was not there..Hahn stayed healthy and tried to be one of the Frantic Five, but was just a second or two off that pace... Bell, showed that he is a great starter, but I think he rode a bit over his head trying to stay up there, which put him on his head and out of the series before he could find his spot ...
The KTM duo was really good this year!! Marvin started out with a broken hand and yet still rode smooth and found his way to the front of the pack. By the mid point of the series he was finding his pace and looking like we expected him to, smooth as an MM..he just never quite had that little bit extra to put him over the top...Roczen had many great starts, led a lot of laps, his speed was good but he made some poor line choices late in motos which cost him a victory or two, but he kept his head up and kept charging...
Pro Circuit had some tough luck, losing Durham before the season started and then Tedesco going down to injury and struggling he rest of the year. They did however have BBB, Blazing Blake Baggett, and that was enough to bring PC another championship..Blake seemed to take his time, figure out a track, then attack it, using lines that no one else seemed to see..He was not only able to keep his momentum up around the track, he kept the points lead all series long, which was very impressive against all the competition he had.
There were many others who put in a good showing, Nelson, Baker and Malcolm come to mind, as they never mailed it in, they rode hard. All in all, it was a wonderful show put on by the 250 class in the Great Outdoors, now it would be appropriate to use Bob Hope's theme song, Thanks for the Memories!!
"Pourcel would have waxed him too"
.LMAO. how many outdoor titles does he have??....Oh yeah thats right NONE...Rattray??? NONE funny stuff....you really showed me
OrganDoner!!!!
.A lesson about donating organ's, Don't start with your brain wile still alive.
How many outdoor titles does bam bam have??? I think pourcel came way closer to getting one than bam bam, twice. woulda had it if not for the dnf
Dude i am no Barcia fan, I picked Baggett and Tomac before the season started. Either way barcia has has 2 SX titles not sure if CP has 1 or 2. As for could have had it you could say if Baggett DNF'ed Barcia would have won this year right?
Let me add that i feel CP was the best guy in 09 when he lost it to RD, The motor at Southwick cost him for sure but he still had a shot, in 2010 he faded REAL bad down the strach and TC came on strong but still would have had it if he did not carsh. But having said that I think the pase this year was WAY WAY faster then 09 or 10, The class this year was crazy fast like we have never seen before so to say what you said is crazy to me.