250 Words: Two-Stroke Versus Four-Stroke
Tuesday, November 8, 2011 | 5:00 PM
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The thumper has taken over motocross, leaving only the die-hards to keep the flame alive on the fringes. However one perfect two-stroke versus four-stroke racing battleground remains, one many may not realize.
The Can-Am Grand National Cross Country series includes a Lites Pro class, dubbed XC2, and unlike the Lites class in supercross or the 250 class in motocross, the rulebook allows for both two and four-stroke 250s to race side-by-side. It’s worth noting that 250 two-strokes race against 250 four-strokes at the Red Bull AMA Amateur Motocross National at Loretta Lynn Ranch, too, but even in those classes, it seems like a good 30 four-strokes line up against a dozen two-strokes.
The woods races in GNCC are different. Two-strokes still have a significant place off road, and the XC2 Lites division seems to be the perfect, level playing field. This year’s XC2 Lites Champion is Steward Baylor, a kid from South Carolina with a KTM support ride. He rode a 250 two-stroke to the title. Baylor won six of 13 rounds. Another KTM two-stroke rider, Jesse Robinson, scored a win as well.
Steward Baylor won the XC2 class on a KTM two-stroke.
Photo: Shan Moore
But 250 four-strokes won the other six races, with FAR Husqvarna’s Jason Thomas and Andrew DeLong each snagging a win, and Obermeyer Yamaha’s Jordan Ashburn taking three wins on a YZ250F. So that’s six wins from 250Fs, and seven (and a title) for the 250Ts.
Interestingly, Ashburn won Friday’s penultimate XC2 round on his 250F, while Baylor clinched the title on his two-stroke. With the title decided, Ashburn decided to switch it up and ride a YZ250 two-stroke on Sunday, and he led again before eventually fading to third, saying the two-stroke wore him out. “I know which bike I’ll be racing next year,” he said after Sunday’s race.
But Baylor will be back next year and he’ll stick with the two-stroke. In one small venue, the battle continues.
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4 strokes have ruined MX,gone are the days of 3 grand for a new bike and a few hundred for a top and bottom rebuild,the more things change the more things suck,luckly I still have 3 great condition pre-mixers.
And if the rules were 250 2t vs 250 4t in the lites would we perhaps see a similar trend in motocross? A 250 2t is just not competitive against a 450 thumper and this rather even split in the results for the woods stuff is testament to that.
Yea, I think 4 strokes definitely have the upper hand and I enjoyed riding them when I could afford it. But those days have come and gone and with this economy I, along with so many other fellow american motocrossers can simply no longer afford it. Bottom line—these bikes cost to much!
How about an article on that? Go 2 stroke.
Facts (and the dyno) speak for themselves. On a level playing field, two strokes win. If the four stroke is so far superior, why do they need double the CC's to be competitive?
Oh snap..
In a sport that is so dependent upon affordability, it seems that the 4 stroke has ruined the sport we love so much. 2 strokes were so easy to maintain versus a 4. Just my honest opinion!!!
they should definately do that for the lites class it would be the best thing to happen
a top running 250f in SX must have 45 hp and have a smooth ''traction finding'' powerband, even if the 250 2 stroke are allowed in the class they would still need a particular riding style to go as fast...until major manifacturers get back to improving em, now that would be cool, look at what CAN-AM/BRP are doing with their sleds: 2 stroke 800cc, direct injection, clean burning and best of it, over 165 hp. It's not like they cant do it.
Last moto I rode was in 91.......no way I could afford to ride a 4 banger, and I dont think I'd want to.
Four strokes aren't fun, end of story. I have no interest in buying them either for me or for my kids.
They don't sound good, they cost too much to operate, and they are too heavy.
I'm buying at KTM 150 and something fun for my kids. They will be 2 strokes.
A 2012 KTM 250f makes about 36hp. A 2012 KTM 250sx(2 smoke)makes about 50hp(Only company with both models in 2012). Do the math. Displacement for displacement 2 strokes win.When 2 strokes came on the scene in the 60's they didn't get an 80-100% displacement advantage like todays four strokes get.
Sold my CRF 250 On e bay this weekend , but I kept my YZ 125 , I have more fun on it anway, Looking for a used YZ 250 , but the word is out , and used twostrokes are going up in value , but still less expensive to race and maintain , than the Four strokes..
I love 2 strokes as much as anyone, and continue to ride one. The sad fact is that even if the OEMs pulled all of the 4 strokes off the showroom floors and reverted back to 2 strokes, your new YZ 250 is now gonna cost $8K. (since$ 7k is so much better,lol,) The bottom line is... we riders/consumers are f'd. We should should be grateful Yamaha and the Euros still make them available to us. Long live 2 strokes!
Miguelsanchez; In the woods the bike is SECONDARY! RIDER TALENT SHOWS FIRST. The 4 strokes mask rather improve some riders talents. There are at least 2 euros that can and have whipped ALL the best talented 4 stroke riders, While piloting 2 strokes.
NEXT AND MOST IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!
The AMA needs to pull their heads out of their @@S and reduce the limit of the four stroke engine size. IF......If Yamaha didn't build the NEXT generation 4-stroke we'd still be seeing 2 strokes at the top of the podium. NO ONE COULD FORESEE THAT EVENT HAPPENING! In the BEST interest of the sport. The limit should be 325 cc to 350 cc. Possibly, if KTM built their direct injection two stroke, We'd have a competitive bike situation. I can't wait for them to build it and print the dyno tests!!!!
I bought a new KTM 150, and I have to say/admit it is the most fun I've had riding moto since I was 16 and going full tilt boogie on a 125. The light weight and flick-ability of a 125, with the power and punch of a mild 250t...awesome!
Although I enjoy my two stroke, I'm not going to jump on the anti four stroke bandwagon yet. I really don't think that four strokes pushed the pricing up like some people believe, off the showroom floor what you are getting is way more advanced as a package, not just in the engine department. Yes there is a significant difference in price, but it seems like that is normal considering the extra moving parts necessitated by a four stroke engine.
The last time a dirt bike could be purchased off the dealer floor for three grand ( like the first post argues ) was during the late eighties and early nineties.....1993 CR125R MSRP: 3799ish....18 years ago! I can't help but wonder where these people have been the last two decades, everything is more expensive not just dirtbikes.
Personal preference and racing reality dictates that the four stroke will continue to dominate the market. No one really can argue against a level playing field, I don't understand why the displacement rule exists, it's prejudicial plain and simple and needs to go. Factories and race teams can decide based on what they would like to design, market, and sell to the public.
> Personal preference and racing reality dictates that the four stroke will continue to dominate the market.
The continued existence of the displacement rule, not personal preference, will dictate the current racing environment and continued domination of the 4-stroke. No religious war implied here, just a statement of cause and effect. Dump the current displacement rule, and personal preference would rule -- and then we'd all win.
2 VS 4 has NOTHING to do with performance or rider ability or fairness. It is ALL about money. If the big 5 could come out with a 900cc 8-stroke, that cost $16,000, and lasted 1/2 as long as a 4-stroke, the 2 and 4 strokes would be gone. Just convince people the 8 stroke is better, have the AMA create another artificial displacement rule, and everyone will pile on.
Simple fact, there is more money to be made on parts from a 4 stroke than a 2 stroke, when you have at least twice as many parts.
Finally, you can't just change the displacement rule back overnight. The big 5 have mega millions tied up in R&D.
Honda always hated 2 strokes and only went to them because they had too.
@dooher...Unfortunately the majority still would pick a four stroke over the two stroke, I'm not saying that I would, but the four strokes are easier to ride by average consumers, more forgiving, and make tractoring around the track quite fun.
The displacement rule is what helped kill the two strokes future in racing, but you go to the track and even though two strokes are still readily available, only a small percentage of people choose to ride one.
That being said I like the feeling of working my 125 twice as hard to get to the same place, it feels faster and is definitely more fun for me.
300 2-smokes rule the trails in my nick of the woods.
The last time I spent under $3000 was in 1978 on a CR 250 Husky, a 1977 250 Bultaco from Gary Bailey !
great reading all the comments, My two cents is that it has ruined it for a lot of folks,.at 40 I still race a YZ125 in the 40 + int & 30 int..been at it since the mid 70's and still just like to race!....My bike is a 2005 YZ125 from a young man his folks paid 5K for it and he wrecked, mom said he needed to sell it.....FMF pipe and silencer,stand etc,.I paid $1500 for it maybe 15 hrs on it.....Everybody I race against is on a thumper let alone a 450.....most guys hold on to the 58HP fuel inj race rocket for a short period of time and they fade bad.....It's A LOT of bike.....I am not as fast as I was but have made a lot of racers get bent cause they see me with a huge smile on my face with a trophy in my hand. What I am getting at is racing needs to be fun.. I don't need a 10K bike( w/ mods) to do that,..
I've just seen a lot of changed with the pits throughout the decades, A lot of us remember the Chevy Luv trucks with a homemade trailer with a couple bikes, camper shell w/ a mattress in the back and all your race stuff,...how those 4 banger little motors ever made it all those trips?? 4 strokes have taking a lot of the fun out of the family sport.....I quote Mitch Payton, " when the 4 strokes started in this sport, my racing budget INCREASED four times!.... that's why I hate fourstrokes, took the fun out of it price wise,.....get a two stroke, unless your going for a championship you don't need 10K to go fast :)
Check out my "2001 Honda CR250" facebook page. 2 strokes forever!!
four strokes are easy and fun to ride for sure.it doesnt matter,they have absolutly killed local racing.the life blood of any buisines or sport is new buisines.no kids can even get into mx for fun, let alone race them. the cost of buying new bikes every year, as well as keeping them performing in race condition is totaly out of hand.to try and go to high level,(pro) takes crazy money,and frankly isnt worth the investment.it really does have to change or the sport will dissapear for the avarage person! why do you think pro racing is so bad off.the o.e.m.s can see they are not selling many new units,why race it aint helping sales!
Don't forget The other Killer to four strokes is Californias Green sticker Law that went into effect in 2003. In state parks any 2 stroke 2003 and newer is restricted on the time of year that it can ride there. Although some 4 strokes are restricted as well, it just killed it off here. You have to go national forest land for most of us 2+ hours away betwen May 1- Oct1 to ride trails.
^ "pro racing is so bad off" dont know if you keep up with current racing, but both classes are more stacked now then ever before. Yes it does take MAJOR money if you want to compete at that level, and to get yourself or your kid there it takes DEDICATION. For the average Joe that wants to ride around and have fun I suggest getting a 2 stroke. I was forced to get rid of my 4 stroke and get a 2 stroke myself.
As far as power is concerned I was WAY faster on my 250F then I am on a 125. Yes 2 strokes make more HP but how many people actually use all of the HP a bike makes. It has a lot to do with bottom end, and no one can argue a 2 stroke makes more power on the bottom.
I dont believe 4 strokes ruined our sport, they just changed it. If you ask me, I like watching videos from the 70's lol I cant figure out how those guys went as fast as they did, and it would be interesting to see how fast they would have been on the bikes we have today.
I'm not anti 4 stroke, and I do own both 2 and 4. If I HAD to sell one of them, it would be the 4. Two strokes are more fun to ride, that's a fact! Since I am never going to be a pro, and I do race locally my 2t work great and its a blast to ride. My 4 is a great bike but way to heavy and WAY to expensive. I just did a top end with new valves (800.00) ouch! I just cant justify the much higher overall cost of ownership. My next new bike is going to be a KTM 150. That bike is the most fun MXer on the planet! If you have never tried one I suggest you do so, you'll be a fan for sure. If bike sales continue to fall off the face of the earth we just may see 2ts come back.
gills. i agree with you! the four strokes came when the good economy left. my yz 250 was and still is a money pit. there all money pits! four strokes are just like ordering grey goose and red bull instead of the rail vodka! i just miss how many of my friends dont ride or race anymore! i dont think you can blame the four stoke! i think we all just bought to many new bikes on the no interest no payments for 6 months! and it all caught up to us! we're the credit card generation!
@YoungVetRacer76.A 45hp 250f with a smooth powerband for SX.What planet has a 250f with that kind of power.Keep dreaming dude.
rg807 What? yeah Honda really hated the bikes they sold a trillion of for forty years and they obviously put no effort into elsinores ,mr's ,cr's or roadrace bikes...lol KTM is owning the 2 stroke market mostly due to wide ratio gear boxes which makes them friendlier for the average rider plus they are top quality and reliable(and now with e-start for the ultra lazy). ...if the YZ 250 had a nice wide ratio 6 speed I'd buy one today. The Gas Gas is a way better bike than most people (who have never ridden or maybe even seen one) would think. All that being said I love my RMZ and I have seen old YZF 400s with a ton of miles without major repairs if maintained and used normally.I like both 2 and 4 and I like the choice , new ones all cost too much ...buy american -buy used.
@Fred.... grant langstons kx250f had 45hp in 05.... All the best teams got 47hp now!
I ride i new crf450. Had a rm250 two years ago. But i have more fun on my 450, more whiping and scrubbin... Not sayin the rm aint fun.. Just diffrent way to ride
I think everyone should have to learn on a 1974 TM400, Make ya appreciate things a lil bit.
There is no single topic amonst MX's that will incite an argument faster than this. I own both, have blown up both, fixed both, rode both. They are different no doubt. However in the end, regardless of which one you ride, doesn’t riding a dirt bike do something spiritual for all of us? I mean in the end whets the difference? We all love to sling dirt, THAT’S the bottom line, in the words of Rodney King "Can’t we all just get along?" Really people; it’s an amusing topic to discuss but put away the venom for someone who loves to do the same thing you do.
Since I grew up racing 2 strokes this past May I managed to find a slightly abused 01' CR125.. It had a brand new top and bottom end.. Everything else was pretty hammered. After about 250 bucks I had it looking and running PRIMO!! Ebay has been a godsend for finding parts and what not. I have been able to keep up with plenty of 4 strokes at my local practice track.. looking to race a little next year. So for around a grand I have been able to squeak back into MX. Most of us are'nt trying to win a national championship here, just trying to have fun doing what we love. And for the Price and fun factor I feel that the 2S just can't be beat. Besides.. Nothing like being a 33 year old dude passing a fart-can while on the PIPE.. haha...
oh I picked up the CR for 800 bucks.. I mean 800 bucks!!!
Okay, the price of everything has gone up, 4 strokes are not what's killing the sport or its riders. Look at the price tag of a new YZ125, pretty steep considering the technology hasn't changed in how many years? I don't believe for a second that 4 strokes are that much more expensive to race. When I ran a mod 125 I was doing top ends every 10 hours (as opposed to every 40 on a reasonably mod 250F), running expensive fuel (as opposed to running 50/50 blend), going through a few clutches per year (as opposed to one a year on a 250F). I've had Yamaha 250F's and 450's since 2005 and never blown one up (most had mod motors). Also as a testament to Yamaha's bulletproof valve train, my engine builder has never pulled one of my bikes apart to find valves way out of spec, only very minor shimming needed occasionally. Is it the price of that $8 oil filter every other oil change that's forcing you out of the sport? Oh and on a side note, for a practise bike a 250F or 450 can be ridden for like 50-60 hours without worry with only oil changes. I don't recall a 125 of mine that ever made it past 20 hours before it started feeling lazy. Don't get me wrong, I love riding 2 strokes and I may just get another one to pull out of the garage here and there, but if you take care of a 250F you shouldn't be having all kinds of "expensive" issues.
yeah yeah yeah...we've heard all of the above before.
Simple solution people. STOP BUYING FOUR STROKES - only then will they go away.
Only then.
dinosaurmedia.......why exactly should 4 strokes go away? I figure on here is a lot of older guys who grew up racing 2 strokes so that's understandable. And maybe people who just ride leisurely prefer 2 strokes. But at the same time today's young generation of racers want the bike they can go fastest on, and that would be a 4 stroke! I don't dislike 2 strokes, in fact I think 125 classes like schoolboy should be a mandatory one-year stepping stone for kids moving up from minis. Knowing how to ride a 2 stroke before getting a 4 stroke makes a rider leaps and bounds better and a 13 year old doesn't need the weight of a 250F first time around. But as far as race results go (which is the only thing that matters if you're young and competitive) the 4 stroke is the only option now. It's called evolution, the 4 stroke bikes/technology all around are better, get over it. If you only care about play riding then buy whatever you want and quit complaining.
Has anyone seen those new 2 stroke OSSA enduro bike on MXA's website.Those things are super trick.
@Fiveseven.They might can get that kind of power out of a 250f.It would have to be a screamer top end motor only.It would not work in SX.If they are getting that kind of power then the AMA should let 250 2 strokes to race with the 250f's.Those things would have to be turning 16000 to 18000 rpm.I going to have to do the math.I don't believe it.Maybe for a road racer.
It's all about blowing past a 450 on your 250 stroker :)
You can still buy 2 strokes. So still ride them if you like.
CR500AF, Enough said.
Currently looking for a 2003 to '05 KX125 to throw my KDX220 mod. motor into. What a fun woods bike that will be. If I can shed 30/40 lbs. off my ass then a KTM 150 would be a nice compliment in my Moto Stable to the CR500AF. Pre mix RULES.
LOL,LOL I just rerad joemotocros comment on the TM400 and jumped down to say yesereee if you have ever rode one of those hope fully with the extra naro powerband mod you have never riden made my day. I rode some never race one though.
@ fred in 1974 I think it was Ossa made a blue 250 MX cant remember what it was called Phantom I think? That engine was reakky good and it lasted was fast enough stock for the 250 expert class! Then we put a miikuni carb on it and it was even better! The blue fiberglass was pretty just dont crash it.
@welker-
250 Ossa Phantom = Beautiful
TM400 Cyclone = Widow maker or "Strerilizer" at the very least.
They broke kickstart levers like candy canes!
P.S I think 2-strokes stink- in a good way!
The 2 stroke is alive off road but has long been extinct for track riding (MX/SX).
People keep talking about the resurgence of the 2T, but those same people pull in on race day with a 4T. The revival can't happen just from 2Ts showing up to occasional practice days as a second bike to spin some hot laps on. People need to get together and contact the racer promoters early to establish the classes.
AMA Pro Racing will likely never give a shit and stay 4T, but the local scene doesn't have to suffer. There are more recreational/enthusiast racers than Pro entries anyway so those “local” sales could eventually persuade manufacturers to keep producing MX 2Ts (increased segment growth speaks louder than blogs and comment boards). The resurgence will never happen if all riders do is reminisce. Otherwise, the 2T will go the way of the typewriter.
At the AMA Amateur level, the 250 class as defined, allows 250TSs and250Fs. Not every district uses this definition, because it doesn't match a LLQ class. This has been the case in Minnesota for about 3-4 years now. For the most part, the fast guys still race four-strokes. At a sand track, the two-strokes have a clear advantage, but it's kind of a wash everywhere else.
Welker, Ossa Phantoms were freakin' fast and only used a 4 port, non reed valved cylinder layout. I raced (for one ugly season) a '76 version, 1 st year with the up pipe. Tranny sucked and even worse to work on with that 'Spanish shim engineering'. Beautiful Blue Fiberglass till muddy leathers turned it black, then white and then this yellowy hairy lookin'... damn its leaking pre mix now ;)
Go to motocross action online mid-week report.Chech out the new OSSA.Fuel injected 250/300 with ohilins suspension,Exhaust out the rear of clyinder.The exhaust is also between the subframe.It is this gool white ,green black color.Its trick looking.Check it out.Thios is not on of their trials bikes it is a offroad enduro bike.
Fred, The new Ossa is wild looking, didn't realize they were still around. That new Husky would be a kick ass ride to work!
@fred It is very possible to get 47hp out of a 250f motor and have it work for SX. My 2010 CRF250 race bike that I was supposed to race in SX before I got hurt had 43hp and it was a full privateer bike that was built by the guys that used to run the old MotoXXX team. And I have a few friends that know the guys at PC and he told me that those bikes are getting around 50-52hp out of their motors.
@magoofan ...... I am a 2 stroke fan but you can not go by HP numbers alone, you have to look at the torque numbers also. The reason that they are allowing 250 T's and 250F 's to race together in some classes is because they really end up about equal.....250T has more HP, 250 F has more torque, 250 T is harder to ride longer than a 250 F, (less work), 250 T is lighter than a 250 F, 250T cost less than 250Fand vice versus. I honestly like all of the bikes but I am partial to the two stroke because of the cost and expense to maintain a four stroke.
@CTmx967 now you are talking about 50 to 52 hp 250f.PC must have some very optimistic dynos.I guess a PC 450 has 80 to 90 hp.Dream on dream weavers.Hahahaha.Ant no way.
$Strokes have put racing way out of the price range for the average racer. It is turning our sport into a sport of the privleged, a rich boy sport. Its sad too. 2-strokes forever. and the average guy can afford to race or even ride.
@fred I don't really care if you believe me or not. I KNOW the hp that you can get out of a 250. And my old race 450 ran at about 64hp. Factory bikes are probably getting around 70. You obviously don't know much about four stroke motors and what is possible to do to them. Now grant it, the motors dont last long at all. My race motors would only last about 2 1/2 hours of ride time before they would blow up. I had my race 250 dynoed on 4 different machines and all of them read above 43hp. Once at the MotoXXX garage in Riverside, on the dyno owned by Crower Power, the dealership I rode for had their own dyno and they tested it, and my buddy owns one down in Arizona. ALL 4 of them read at 43hp or above. The highest read at 44.6hp. So trust me, I KNOW the power you can get out of a 250f. And my 2010 was actually less power than my 2008 250. That bike had 45hp. Now, like I said before, I couldn't care less if you believe me or not, I'm just telling you what is TRUE about 250f motors, which you obviously don't now much about.
@fred And you do realize that a STOCK 250f runs at about 34-36hp depending on which brand you get and that a STOCK 450 runs at about 44-45hp? If you think about it, it wouldn't be that hard to get that big of a power jump in those motors. Guarantee those factory bikes have some of the most trick parts you could imagine in the motors. Stuff that you would never even be able to buy.
@CTmx967.you are back tracking now.You said your Honda had 47hp now you are down to 43 44.Those numbers are a long way from PC 52 hp.Also stock 450 make over 50 hp.To get over 50 hp out of a 250f it would have to turn 18000 rpm or more.Your the one that doesn't know what your talking about.
I keep a cherry YZ250 in the garage for buddies that need a bike on ride day. I don't even know how to ride the thing anymore. My Honda 450R is the best bike I've ever ridden. I go faster on it, but it has made me lazy. It'll do anything I want in 3rd gear, no clutching, no foreplay. The YZ, which I have owned for years and used to consider fast, just makes me more tired to ride it. Just check the valves and pin it.
@fred No, I did not say that MY bike was getting 47hp. I said it was very possible to a get a 250f to 47hp and that MY bike had around 43-44 and that was with a stock pipe on it. Never made it long enough to bother buying an aftermarket pipe before I got hurt and ran out of money to be able to keep racing. Go re-read my first comment. "It is very possible to get 47hp out of a 250f motor and have it work for SX. My 2010 CRF250 race bike that I was supposed to race in SX before I got hurt had 43hp." And the PC guys also have WAAAYYYY more stuff available to them to use in their motors than what was put into mine. I could VERY easily see the PC kawi 250s making anywhere from 49-52hp. And also, MY bike was a full privateer bike, so of course its gonna be a long ways off of a full factory race bike that probably costs $200,000. And ok, Ill admit, I am wrong about the power a stock 450 makes. I havent ridden a stock 450 or looked at the specs of a stock 450 in a LONG time, so Ill admit Im wrong there. but I KNOW for a fact that the factory 450s are making anywhere from 67-70hp.
I have a good friend of mine who builds engines for flat track racers. He has been doing it for years, and he himself has said the most he has ever seen anyone get from a 450 4-stroker is around 60-62 horsepower. And they arent facing the limits of rules like they face in motocross either. So to get 50-52 from a 250 doesnt seem to realistic to me.
Cost and injuries have hurt the local MX scene but a look in the stands at Pro SX/MX races shows a growing interest in and continuing support for our sport. The 4st has brought reliable, consistent and copious amounts of usable power to the average rider. That being said, my next dirtbike will, hopefully, be a 300 2st with FI and a tag.
It's all a question of perspective, at no time do any of my friends who I race with get too vocal against me ( a thirty four year old novice ) racing a 125, even in the open novice class. You can have fun and be competitive no matter what you ride, the idea is to be out there. If I could afford another bike it would be the KTM 150, only because I learned on the 2T and I see no reason to move to a 4T when I am having this much fun. If I had learned on a 4T the past couple years the story would be the exact opposite I think.
Love the comments from the geniuses who think 2-strokes are better bikes because they make more power for a given displacement. Well, as soon as MX becomes a dyno shootout, you'll be right. But in the real world, lap times are what matter, whether a bike makes 30 hp or 60. And when MXA did their Yamaha "250 vs. 250" shootout, where they pitted a 250 2-smoke vs. a 250F, they showed that overall, on a wide variety of tracks, with a wide variety of rider talent levels, more often than not the 250F posted FASTER lap times, despite a HUGE horsepower deficit. So maybe I should sit here blathering on how inferior 2-strokes are because they, more often than not, turn a slower lap time than a 4-stroke of the same displacment that has way less power.
Totally agree about the obscene cost of re-buidling a 4-stroke - Just saying that all the people who are so convinced a 250 smoker would destroy a 250F, even in the hands of a skilled rider, may be surprised by the outcome of such a match up.
And one last thing, as many have said here already: you can still buy new 2 strokes. So if you want one so badly, then shut the hell up and buy one.
An old buddy/mentor/idol of mine who has been a mechanic at a bike shop since high school said it best, "the new 250 four strokes are hand grenades". We both have hectic lives now with work and I dont get to see him as often as I would like but when I do stop by his shop at home to get something worked on for myself or my sons bike his shop is full of totally wasted honda 250f's,I've seen other colors there as well,but for the most part crf's. He started MX in the 70's,was an acompished A rider,I started in 81'. Our conversations always end up with "how can a family in todays world race MX like we used to when we were growing up"? He's allowed to do side work at a much lower rate than if you took the work to a "supershop" but still the top end rebuilds alone are SKYHIGH when you factor in the parts. Four strokes SUCK. By the way his personal bike is a YZ250 smoker and I went Euro years ago when the whole F thing started with a Gas Gas 300. If the lower end is bad you end up with a repair bill that is about equal to the value of your F1 technology four-stroke=most people just dump em and move on to another endeavor...
Like most of us on here, I too own or have owned both types of bikes. And both have good points and bad points. But I think we are forgetting one important fact. Motorcycle racing, specifically dirt bike racing, is one of the least expensive sports on the planet that you can be involved in at an amateur level. Price is relative my friends. Name any other sport where an amateur can walk into a dealer down the street, spend less than 10 grand on a race ready, fully competitive piece of machinery, and drive reasonably close to home in your pickup and go racing. Does it cost money to race and compete? Of course it does. That's racing. If you don't race then there are plenty of low cost options out there. So, complain all you want about the "cost" of bikes and repairs but at the end of the day, we enjoy a sport that few can even come close to approaching in affordability and I for one love it, $800 top end jobs and all!
I'm with McMoto. I love my CR500AF from Service Honda. That bike pegs the fun-meter.
I am one of those older guys that grew up racing in the 70s on 2 strokes (although my first year racing was on an XR-75). I've ridden Honda and Yamaha's 450f's and while they are easy to ride, they are heavy and not as much fun (for me) as my 500AF. Since I don't get much time to ride these days, it is all about the fun factor for me now.
I can't see myself buying a 250f/450f for me, but might get a Honda 150f for my daughter so I can make an excuse to ride more often. If I did decide to get something smaller than my 500, it would probably be a KTM 150 or I'd find a 125 and do the big bore route.
@CTmx967 you don't have a clue.For a 250f to have 52 hp it would have to turn like 25000 rpm.That would be more rpm than what MotoGPbikes turn.It would have to have a valve train like what F1 cars use.Also factory 450's do not have 67 to 70 hp.Your dreaming.Take my advise do not mix the tard pills with the stupid pills.
I'm getting a 1000hp out of my 3 stroke 90cc. actually I see really nice RMZ 450's 05 06 going for 2500 all the time . If its not been dead revved by a squid for endless hrs thats a heck of a ride for the money even If it needs minor freshening up. I see 2000-05 yz's for 1500-2000 grand. alot of these bikes are clean and have alot of nice stuff on them. 98% of the guys out there can't use near what the RMZ or YZ has. and as for longevity a early (oil in frame)YZ 250f with proper care and nomal use will go A LONG time before it needs anything possibly equal to piston life on a two smoke.
After vigorously reading through all of these interesting comments for the past hour, I have come to the conclusion that 2 strokes are still cheaper to buy and repair. Aside from buying them, most could argue that riding a two stroke takes more skill than a four stroke, as you have to brake harder, and ride smart lines. As some people have previously stated, no matter what bike you ride, it all comes down to skill. Any 4 stroke rider on a stock bike can beat a two stroke modded to the moon if they have the skill.
Unlike most people on this article, I'm not some 40 year old vet rider complaining about the old days. I ride B classes and I race a 250 two stroke. People ask why? I say because its cheap to maintain, arguably more fun to ride, and is waaay easier to pull holeshots.
I had a 250F and mostly hated it because I could shift whenever I wanted, and simply chop the throttle to brake.
To conclude, I just bought a KTM 250 and it is the lightest, fastest, most fun bike I have ever ridden. Long live the two strokes.
hey sampson 151, professional racing is on the verge of colapse.it is bad off, there are former world&national; champs who cant get paid to race. a host of very good second tier guys who cant get rides,and most of the guys who fill the field are paying to race.and what the fu$k are some of you guys smoking! the cost of buying,maintaining,modifieing&rebuilding; fourstrokes is triple of a two stroke! you can pump 10 grand into a four stroke motor,you couldnt spend that on a two stroke if you gold plated the parts!
I knew a guy that claimed his super combat wombat would smoke my 78 1/2 RM250C2.....he needed new helmet n goggles afterwrds. I'm sure he'd claim that Hodaka probably close to 100 hp?......
I'm 50 btw,,,,,,I call 40 yr olds whippersnappers...........
well here's my two cents......45 yrs old, been riding since early 80's. Mostly CR250's and CR500's. Loved the two strokes when I was younger and in better shape. Nowadays for me the two strokes take too much energy to ride. I throw a leg over my big bore CRF250 and I can ride for days and not get tired.....if I get a little bologna armed its not a big deal to hang onto the CRF whereas the CR two strokes would put me on my backside in a heartbeat.....like somebody said, its about the fun factor and for me the big bore 250F's are the ticket right now.
Sure the two strokes are much cheaper to maintain but with my limited amount of riding time the CRF only needs rebuilt once a year so the costs aren't too bad.
If I was racing all the time and younger then yes Id definately be riding a two stroke as the four stroke costs would put me in the poor house......stuffs not cheap but the power and torque put a smile on my face bigtime and thats what ridings all about....
I've come to the conclusion that the elderly (sorry lol) don't like change just like everything else in life, and 4 strokes are just that.
@ retardcross - i am 46 yrs old, been racing since the 70's, and am a mid pack A rider. i held off even trying out my buddies' thumpers for years because i didnt want to want something i couldnt afford, but as soon as i did and felt that gigantic hit of 450 power, i went right out, bought one and havent looked back. but, to be completely honest, i like having my YZ250 in the corner of my garage, just in case.
xray....you saw the light!!! I love ripping 2 strokes now and then, I want one for the corner of the garage like you have. But there is no arguing what is better performing on a motocross track, I'm sure you can agree with that.
Will be 53 next month, stopped racing 5 years ago. Was 4 stroke till the end (had to), now can spend the rest of my moto life 2 smokin'. There is NO sound like a Open class 2/ stroke catching some 3 rd gear hookup on an up hill start ! $ + fun = 2/stroke in a "civilian world". Whether its pre mix or hot start levers, we all have the absolute greatest stress outlet on the planet, ENJOY !
I knew someone who had an arenacross team during the 2S to 4S transition, and he basically said with 250s, they are at opposite ends of the cost-to-run spectrum. His riders were on the rev-limiter most of the time. Most local guys have no business winding out a 450, so when 450s are mostly lugged around for short motos, the top ends last a long time, assuming regular oil changes, clean air filters etc.
I think Roczen on a KTM 250TS would kick some serious butt at Southwick in the 250 class, and maybe Millville, but it would tough for him at the rest of the national tracks.
I rode small 2strokes a bit when I was a kid, (Im 42 now). I couldn't get a bike until I was in my mid 30's and started with a 250f, then had a brand new 450f stolen from me (2 months old), was not yet insured, total loss for me. My financial situation forced me to make a decision, buy a cheap used 2stroke, or quit riding for a long time. I found an RM250 in great shape and rode/raced it hard for 2 years. I had a great time on it, and def got better fundamentally. Awesome woods bike, but It required so much more effort on the MX tracks. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but was at times frustrating, and sometimes put my in bad situations. I was def working alot harder. I brushed it off, until my bro let me take out his 450 for a moto, and there was so much juicy goodness, when I was able to, I picked up another 450, and have the RM250 waiting for some woods riding. They are both fun, but simple fact is, the 4stroke provides more "Usable" power, torque=better traction, requires less shifting and clutch action, which gives me more confidence on the MX tracks. The great thing is, we can choose both, and most importantly ride period. Just ride what works for your situation and style.
sorry to say this, but the 4 stroke isn't going anywhere or being replaced anytime soon. Think about all the tooling that had to be changed int he factories when the big guns switched to full-time 4 stroke production. Iwould love to see them all start making EFI 2 strokes again, but I highly doubt that it will happen due solely to the cost of re-tooling the machines yet again. It would be sweet for sure, but it just doesn't sound realistic. Maybe Yamaha, KTM, TM, and Husky will be the ones to keep the 2-stroke MX technology alive and we can write off Honda, Suzuki and Kawi. I'd go for that!
purchased 1983 cr480 in 84 still have it purchased 2001 kx500 new still have it
son rides 05 z125 he liked 2stroke big bore so much we bought him 2001 cr500
he is 16 i am 51 long live big bore 2 strokes.by the way he brings the yz out
to race 4 strokes,we bring the 500s to race each other.
Just wanted to mention I'm rebuilding my top end for $85!! Best bang for the buck is definitely two stroke in my opinion. It's more of a challenge, I have to work a lot harder than the lazy guys on tractors, but I love it!! That, and the smell of castor and 110!!
I forgot to add that I understand why top level motocross is 4 stroke - but I see no reason why every local track should have 125 / 250 beginner/intermediate and expert classes...
I'm not sure,but isn't the world long jump owned by a CR 500?
For motocross, 4 strokes rule. I bought a brand spanking new 2012 KTM 250 SX because all the mags said if you want to have fun, go 2 stroke. Well, I'm here to say that if your definition of fun is working harder to keep up with 450's all while getting more tired, then 2 strokes are definitely more fun. I made the mistake of riding a Honda CRF 450 for a few laps and couldn't believe how much easier it was to ride. It was easier everywhere and I wasn't as tired. I then remembered an article I read in 1999 about the YZF 400. All the test riders were stunned to find out that they were faster on the 4 stroke and they weren't as tired. Hmmm? Why would that change? What's the old saying? "Those that forget the past are condemned to repeat it"......or something to that affect. I don't know about any of you reading this, but if something comes along to make my life easier all while making me perform better, I'm all in. To me, the joy of riding is being able to ride longer. Also, if you are working less it also becomes safer. It is unfortunate that 4 strokes costs more to be rebuild, but that much more? I would love to see the actual operating cost, PER HOUR, broken down..like an aircraft..I bet it isn't as bad as Moto Hysteria makes it out to be. I would be willing to bet that if any top 10 250 national rider were given the choice between 2 or 4 stroke, they would all, to a man, pick the fourstroke. Note: Watch the Youtube video of James Stewart riding a YZ 250 2 stroke. He clearly says: "If you get passed by one of these and you're on a 450, you need to quit." I'm sorry 2 stroke America. The writing has been on not only the wall, but great big giant blimps with neon signs: "4 strokes are superior moto weapons for the masses!" It's just the way it is. If you're gonna play,(and be more than competetive) you gotta pay!