Between the Motos: Seiji Ishii
Thursday, December 27, 2012 | 11:30 AM
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PrintA few weeks ago, ex-pro Jason Thomas explained that most riders put in their hardest training through the fall, and then actually back it down and rest a bit as the season approaches. For more on the timing of it all, we called Seiji Ishii, trainer for Andrew Short and Jason Anderson, for an update on what happens in the months leading up to Anaheim 1.
Racer X: Anaheim 1 is approaching. Where is a rider physically at this point?
Seiji Ishii: We're now in what we call a pre-competition stage. It's going to sound weird, but I think it's very critical to know when to back off your training. You've hopefully already recuperated a bit after the season, maybe a few weeks off. You're well rested. Then the off-season is when you do the heavy work, high intensity stuff, and working on weaknesses from the previous year. There's also a lot of testing and riding, too. At this point, you're kind of backing off, in my opinion. It's high volume, but not as much as it was, because you don't want to be running into the first round of supercross tired. You should be so fresh that you're almost jumping out of your skin—you want to get on that bike and race.
So what's the hardest time of year?
Depends on the person, of course, but for me it's September and October. By Thanksgiving you're testing and that's a high intensity day—you have to run at race pace to really test the bike, so you can't spend as much time on off-the-bike training.
Also, the younger the rider is, the further you can push it. In Jason Anderson, I can keep him at a high volume of training much later than Andrew, who has been around for 12 years as a pro.
And that's because a younger rider recovers quickly?
Well, it's recovery, but also the mental factor. How excited are they to get the season going? How excited are they to go riding every day? Because some of these testing days are dawn until dusk, 90 or 100 laps on the same track day after day. It can get kind of boring. We're talking minute details here, but when a guy is older, maybe all of that riding and testing and training wears on him a little, where a younger guy doesn't care, he'll get on the bike and do a ton of laps every day. To give you an idea, a week for Jason right now looks like a week for Andrew a month ago.
Some of Seiji's (pictured above) top riders include Andrew Short and Jason Anderson, among others.
Coach Seiji photo
The biggest myth out there is, when a rider gets tired in a race, that he'll, “train harder this week and get in better shape.” But you can't make a big impact on fitness in a week—how long does it really take?
To do it right, it takes years. But that's not just a physical training thing, it's also a matter of learning your body enough to come up with a training program that times out best for you. But if you want me to put a rough number on it, I'd say it really takes 12 weeks to re-add some base to your fitness so you can go 20 laps no problem.
But 12 weeks is hard to find, even in the off-season.
Right, but that would be a rider starting from nothing. You're already in pretty good shape when the previous season ends. And what's interesting is the longer a guy has been around, the longer he can go and still have that base. A guy like Andrew can sit on the couch for a month, pick up his bike and go 20 laps. A rider like Jason isn't there yet—when you have a lifetime base built up, you don't lose it very quickly.
Also, Andrew knows his body. He knows sometimes he needs to take a week off and he knows if he does that, he's not going to lose that base. A younger rider doesn't know that, so he'll get freaked out and nervous that he should be doing more all the time. So they're balls to the wall the whole time—luckily the Lites riders only have to race eight or nine weeks in supercross. Because they only have half the races, they have to be on it at peak for round one. For a 450 guy, I'll tell the rider and team, he may not be at peak for round one. It might be round four until he is really feeling it.
So there's a lot more than meets the eye. Most of us will judge who has what at the first race of the year.
Yeah, and I never say it because it sounds bad, but for a 450 guy you're looking at racing from January to September. That's a long season to prepare for, lots of travel, a guy like Andrew has kids in the house running around. There's only so much energy to go around. If you blow out all of your energy for round one, you're in for a long season. So, I say I have to meter the energy use. I want Andrew at round three to wake up at 5 a.m. fired up and wanting to go to the track—I don't want to have to wake him up and get him going.
You mention something interesting. Look at boxing, they set themselves up to peak maybe for one of two fights per year. And I know cycling, which you have a backround in, is set up the same way—a few key events you build the whole year around.
Yeah a pro cyclist peaks two or three times a year. A guy in this sport has to do it 29, or even more with some other races.
Andrew Short's (pictured above) prep for A1 is much different than Jason Anderson's.
Simon Cudby photo
So this schedule really messes with fitness. If the season was set up with three big races per year, would it completely change the level of fitness a rider could have?
Oh yeah—and I actually look at the GP schedule in Europe, and it would be so much easier. They'll race once per week and then have two weeks off. But that's what makes this sport so hard to train for—there isn't a double points race or one event is bigger than the other. It doesn't have playoffs like other sports. Every race is the same. So I made the decision that I couldn't just have a guy at peak fitness for 29 weekends. It can't be done. So you have the mentality of peaking at the third or fourth round and then you try to maintain that for as long as you can. But that leads to a question for the rider. Would you rather peak a few races in, maintain that for as long as you can, and have a solid season of thirds and fourths, or would you rather just blow it out early, win one of two races a year, and get eighth at every other race? You could, say, do Anaheim 2, taper down and not train all week, come into the third race feeling awesome, win that, maybe do the same thing the next week, win that, but then you've taken two weeks off and you'll lose maybe 10 percent of your base. But for some teams, all they want is a win. One win. You could train that way. You could do it. I've lucked out with a guy like Andrew who would rather be top five week in and week out for eight years than win a few races here or there for three years.
Oh yeah—and I actually look at the GP schedule in Europe, and it would be so much easier. They'll race once per week and then have two weeks off. But that's what makes this sport so hard to train for—there isn't a double points race or one event is bigger than the other. It doesn't have playoffs like other sports. Every race is the same. So I made the decision that I couldn't just have a guy at peak fitness for 29 weekends. It can't be done. So you have the mentality of peaking at the third or fourth round and then you try to maintain that for as long as you can. But that leads to a question for the rider. Would you rather peak a few races in, maintain that for as long as you can, and have a solid season of thirds and fourths, or would you rather just blow it out early, win one of two races a year, and get eighth at every other race? You could, say, do Anaheim 2, taper down and not train all week, come into the third race feeling awesome, win that, maybe do the same thing the next week, win that, but then you've taken two weeks off and you'll lose maybe 10 percent of your base. But for some teams, all they want is a win. One win. You could train that way. You could do it. I've lucked out with a guy like Andrew who would rather be top five week in and week out for eight years than win a few races here or there for three years.
There was a time when Andrew said, “Man, I want to win. I always get second or I always get third.” And you know what? He got that win last year. And it was awesome for him, but in the end, he said, “It's better for my long term health, for my family, to just be the guy that keeps plugging away every week.” He understands he could adjust his training to be super strong at the outdoor opener and then really struggle every week after that, but he doesn't want to do that.
Well, in this industry, a lot of teams would rather just have the wins!
Yeah and if you take a step back, some riders can do that for their whole career. You could put your body through the meat grinder and try to win as many races as possible in a short amount of time, and make as much money as you can in that short span. Or, you can be solid for a long, long time and try to make your money that way. Also, remember, if you're trying to hit your peak during the season, you get to use the intensity of the actual race as a training session—and you'll never be able to replicate race intensity at home. You have to count that Saturday racing program as part of your program.
It's crazy to think you guys can target things to that degree.
Oh, it's hard, and I'm not going to say I've hit those targets perfectly, but you're always making decisions based around this. To put it another way, the harder you push yourself training, the taller the fitness peak, but the narrower the peak. The performance gain is very short lived. The more time you spend building a base, but never doing it so hard that you just put yourself in the hurt locker and break yourself down, the longer of a peak you'll be able to maintain.
If you pay attention you can probably see it. And maybe I'm just seeing things because I'm a trainer and I see things a different way, but, you can see riders who just blew their wad in one or two races in the Lites class. They have a few big races, and then they can't replicate that every week. They look at things differently in cycling. They will literally see a 17-year-old kid and say, “He's five years out from being a top-three guy.” And they will work with him for five years. Here, they put expectations on the 17-year-old kids immediately. It's much better if you plan things out—it will help extend a rider's career.
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he seems like an intellegent man
In my opinion, Seiji is one of the smartest trainers in the industry. Like, too-damn-smart-for-his-own-good smart. If you are interested in training, I would go to the Virtual Trainer site and read all of his work.
Its a shame that old pros like Omara and Stanton didn't realize this back in their day.I personally feel they could of easily extended their careers for a few years.I've always thought it was stupid to ride a road bike say 80 or a 100 miles in a day during the week between races in the outdoor season.
Fred you must be a newby Ever here of Jeff Spence ?
I really don't understand an 18 year old kid needing to train to ride a dirtbike. Maybe its part of the video game generation that sits on their butt all the time. I "trained" as an 18 year old. It was called life. I could do anything for 30 minutes.
I guess I should re phrase that. I don't understand an 18 year old needing a TRAINER. My point was fitness is easy to achieve at that age
texag, I agree. When I raced as a teenager in the 70's, I was a little overweight, smoked a little (yeah, can't believe it now), didn't 'train' at all, but I was so stoked sometimes in practice that I'd do 30-40 minutes at full speed, no problem.
Sorry that was Jeff Spencer missed a letter
most 18 year olds need a trainer because they dont WANT to train. and another part, although not huge, is that some teams require the rider to have a trainer or have a specific team trainer to handle all the riders at the same time. For the most part though, its mini-dads wishing their kids can be the next Carmichael by throwing them in the gym and making them ride 500 laps.
Seiji helped me get " back on the bike" a few months ahead of schedule by teaching me to "focus on the little things & make adjustments for the Big Picture"...
He's extremely solid in his knowledge and training.
@RA125 a few years back I actually had this conversation with Omara in person.He said his base was at such a high level bla bla bla that it didn't bother him etc.Then a few months later some mag did a interview with Jeff Ward he he said the same thing that I was saying.Jeff was friends and trained with Omara when they were team mates at Kaw.I assummed that Jeff knew what he was talking about plus it validated my thoughts on that subject.Hahahaha I mean LOL.
@RA125 I'm sure Jeff Spencer was a great trainer for long distance bike riding for thing like the Tour de France.But Omara was a motorcycle racer at the time.I bet that today even Jeff Spencer would admitt that he might of overtrained those Honda boys a little back in the day.His training would of benn great if Omara was a CNCC or enduro rider at the time.Keep in mind Spencer was fairly new to MX and had come from traing tour riders that were setting up to peak for one big race a year.
You guys are missing the point a bit on the need for a trainer. Yes, it is about being prepared to go 40-minutes but can a rider do it week after week after week while dealing with travel and injuries? That is where the expertise and skill of a trainer comes in hand. A trainer like Seiji does way more than count reps at the gym. The proof as to need/effectiveness of a trainer is with the rider. Ask Short, Anderson, RV, Wiemer, Brayton, Baggett, Stewart (when he was winning), Carmicheal, etc, etc......
In my opinion, every professional rider should have two things. A coach and a trainer. Name one other sport that does not have a coach and/or trainer for the athlete. Motocross is a bit behind the learning curve on that one and I question why every single day. It's in the culture I guess but I think is slowly changing. Look to the amateur ranks. the sports two biggest amateurs are already working with trainers and coaches. AC is working with Aldon baker (RV's trainer) and Cooper Webb has been working with me for the past year and Gary Bailey since he started riding. That is something that was unheard of a few years ago.
What's missing from the whole equation here is that EPO and TRT cause different reactions at different times and with different doses. Since this isn't tested for or considered cheating, most guys use it but just don't talk about it. Kind of like I.V. in RVs. But really, when it comes to peaking, or the longevity of a career, TRT is the key factor. But all the trainers in moto refrain from speaking about it since it's still stigmatized. This is unfortunate because this is the same recipe for a cycling world style "fallout". It will happen in the next decade, but the media (racerX) and trainers can stop it simply by allowing the dialogue to flow....
....and I shall be banned in 3... 2.... 1...
I get what you are saying here.I thought it was a breath of fresh to hear what Seiji said.If I was a factory rider I would hire Gary Bailey as a riding coach and just do PX-90 dvd's for training.Hahahaha I mean LOL.
Seriously @ TrippieCarlyle I doubt EPO doping is going to help a supercross racer in a 17 min race.It would help in the outdoors but not SX.
The ability to transport more oxygen to the muscles because of more red blood cells in the blood (EPO increases red blood cell count) would absolutely help in motocross.
Its sucks that this may be an issue our sport, but I almost guarantee it is. Why would it not be? It is everywhere else. Unless the sport gets serious about testing, performance enhancing drugs (almost definitely) will be used.
TRIP, no one is going to ban you for having an intelligent dialog......
PEDs absolutely, 100% WILL help a rider. But not in the way you all may be thinking. It's not the performance increase that helps but the recovery from week to week (which in a way is performance based). And I'm not sure what rug you are talking about but if you look at every single interview I do on Virtual Trainer, the last set of questions is about PEDs. I can honestly say not one rider or trainer has ducked the question and have always not only answered the question but also elaborated on the topic.
In SX there is testing, just like in cycling, for PEDs.
@fred I agree a coach is much more important unless you are a complete slug and can't motivate yourself. I also think the fitness level needed to race motocross is grossly overstated. I think these guys wear themselves down with all the cardio. I also think more strength training is needed. They need stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments.
Focused guys like RC, RV, and RD would be at the top if Richard Simmons trained them. I firmly believe the great trainer equals a great rider equation is a self fulfilling prophesy. The best riders have the money to hire expensive trainers so those trainers like Baker get associated with winning. Once a trainer gets that reputation they become the holy grail.
You guys are missing the point if you think all a professional trainer does is motivate the rider. That is part of it but only a very small part. If a rider needs a trainer to motivate him to train, that is a rider who will never reach his full potential.
I asked RV in an interview how much credit he gives Aldon for winning last year's SX championship, and he stated "I think that without Aldon I would have done what I did in past years. I would have won some races but going into Vegas I would not have bet on myself to win the championship." That's a pretty strong statement in my mind.
Since this is Seiji's article, I would love for Andrew to chime in on what he thinks about trainers. Bet he gives Seiji a ton of credit for his success tha past few years.
"I also think the fitness level needed to race motocross is grossly overstated." hmmmm, wonder if you ride to make that statement. Fitness in motocross is paramount. Without fitness, you have one lap of speed.
I've been a fitness trainer for 24 years and known Seiji for about half of that time and he's as smart as it gets when comes to periodization. It's very real and very important. When he got involved with motocross training years ago people were skeptical when we were talking about peaking. Now it's pretty much the norm. It was refreshing the first time I ever heard Ricky and Aldon talk about it. Fitness professionals have been promoting it for years but professional cyclists have popularized it because it's so effective for elite level conditioning. That's why trainers like Seiji and Aldon, who both have cycling backrounds, are so good at what they do. Even with the proliferation of PED's in sports you still have to be at your very best physically and while a ton of natural ability and/or youth might get you there, as Sieji says, it won't keep you there. I promise you even a seasoned pro doesn't know it all, much less an 17 year old, or younger. Without proper guidance the younger athlete easily screws himself up with improper work loads leading to burning out or getting hurt. While you can blame some of the crashing and injuries on motocross, often it's because the athlete is not at their best at that time and might not even know it. The information in the article including the comparison's of Shorty and Jason is pretty cool and I feel fortunate to know a trainer not willing to share and explain that kind of information about his athletes. Good article Seiji!
@Virtual Trainer, this is a case in point on how people in the know use rhetoric to cause the average fan to think PEDs is a small issue in moto. The fact that you can somehow claim there is testing shows your lack of integrity... or maybe I'm just clueless? I thought we were talking about the main drugs of use (TRT, HGH, EPO)? Are these tested for??
As for trainers being open to PED dialogue, I don't see Seigi saying anything here at all. And of course, when it is talked about, lies are spread: like saying there is testing is SX, when you know this misleads people to thinking that the main drugs are tested for. And besides, all the cycling trainers are giving the moto world the same "recycled" answers... "sure its out there, but I don't see it, and I don't know who"... and it's working for you... but to those who can spot a charlatan become disgusted, and like a shrewd politician you don't want to see your fellow trainers go down, or see a black eye on the industry so you claim ignorance and flow down wherever the stream takes you.
Realistically I get it. Like politics, it's how the game is played. Imagine the hell you'd go through if you blew the whistle? Or if you called out names (like Baker who insiders know is guilty) you'd be ostracized. You'd need a new career, so of course you say what people want to hear.
But it's tiresome.
And one day it'll all be exposed an if we're lucky enough, Southpark will make an episode about it :)
In Supercross, PED drug testing is absolutely in place. See this article http://www.racerxvt.com/article/drug-testing-in-supercross .
The rest is pointless to argue. And if you knew me, you would know that I am the least politically correct person around. I will say this though, when it comes to training I consider myself to be pretty "inside" and I am 100% confident neither Aldon nor Seiji are "dirty" trainers.
I understand a trainer is more than a motivator, and I also understand trainers will defend the need for trainers. Any somewhat intelligent person can learn what it takes to get in shape. There have been numerous books written on the subject. Yes MX is strenuous but a MX rider doesn't need the fitness required to win the Tour or an Iron Man.
RV has even been convinced they are needed. I'm not surprised. Like I said it's a self fulfilling prophecy. I have trainer "x" and won a championship therefore I need trainer "x". Suddenly everyone else needs trainer "x" and only the best can afford him so guess what trainer "x" trains the best riders. The truth is RV won a lot of races without Baker. He's a talented and skilled rider. When any superstar trainer takes a perennial 15th or 20th place guy and makes him a winner I'll drink the Kool-Aid.
As far as Short goes I definitely see the benefit of a trainer for a 25+ year old or thirty something. If you are in your teens or early 20s not so much.
As a knowledgeable self taught 40 year old I gained more size and strength in the last couple of years than anyone in my gym including those using personal trainers. I was motivated. I was eating the right food at the right time, taking the right supplements, and training with more intensity than anyone else. I also knew when to rest and not to over train. It's not rocket science.
Wow. That wasn't the point of that comment at all. It certainly wasn't supposed to be about drugs and I didn't say anything about testing. I certainly wasn't inferring that Seiji was even talking about. It was just about the importance of periodization, not my viewpoint on drugs. Was just giving some props on good training article. Not sure what went wrong there.
Virtual Trainer, you again have shown what I am talking about here. There are no blood tests, and therefore are not accurately testing for HGH, EPO, or TRT which are the drugs we are talking about since they are the ones trainers are administering. How perfect of you to refer me to that article which shows that indeed, there are is not drug testing in SX other than that charade of a piss test. You know urine testing does not test for the drugs of choice that we are speaking of, so why attempt to mislead while preaching your own integrity?
I hope people see through this BS deception that is going on here and throughout the industry; and that some of these people are at best naive or uninformed; at worst deceptive charlatans. I hope fans are able to recognize the pattern of PED abuse in every other sport and acknowledge the problem before it's too late.
Without blood testing, it's all just smoke and mirrors.
Ricky197 - Your views and comments regarding Seiji are spot on.
Dear fans of moto, again Virtual Trainer is exhibiting the very behaviour of others PED infested sports. His tribute to dialogue and honesty are just lip service. Earlier, Virtual Trainer agreed dialogue was good, but when the heart of the issue comes forth he disregards the information which is crucial to cleaning up the sport.
Without blood testing, all riders are free to use TRT, HGH and EPO.
The ones who sacrifice everything to race would be fools to not use these enhancers, that's why the ones who sacrifice everything are the winners.
@ TripCarlyle Get off the site and go back to school Preston !
Scub nuts
You don't think PEDs is a problem? Are we the only clean sport in the world? Do urine tests equal a clean sport?
These are serious questions with serious implications... @RA125 have you considered this before? what are your thoughts?
TripCarlyle smoke and mirrors? how do the do in other professional sports in US? I am from Sweden and been a professional ice hockey player in US. No tests, I heard of the tests but no penalties if you there positive. yes, fist time 1000 dollars, second time maybe 5000, third time 10 000 and rehab 1 month. that´s not a penelty if you make 1-10 millions/year is it? American sports are a joke in testing and penalties if the tests are positive.
Thanks Virtual Trainer. I see your point Texag. At the pro level though, at least for outdoors, riders must be prepared for two 45 minutes motos, back to back, at varying times depending on tv schedules, at 95% MHR and usually in the heat. While this is not exactly the same as the anaerobic condition needed for pro cycling as all of the variables in a training schedule including intensity, frequency, duration, and the frequency of the peaks in a season differ, credible studies in recent years have shown what trainers have been saying all along, which is that motocross and pro cycling are similar sports when it comes to brutally stressing the bodies. It is true that some athletes including kids, may have been gifted with better condition systems than others, having higher V02M's among other things. For those individuals, and maybe this included you, training might comes easier. Even for a younger rider though, having a good understanding of the numbers gives the trainer the ability to predict the potential of that athletes' ability to aerobically and anaerobically condition the body over time and this includes years. That's why early guidance is important for ensuring the longevity of the career. An entire career is fairly predictable with all of the correct information. This is what a trainer or athlete means when they talk about it taking years to get in your best shape. The trick is trying to manage all of the other stressors in life that could affect that prediction. Like Seiji said, in Andrew's case those stressors might include trying to raise a family and for a younger rider like Jason it could be trying to manage the stressors of new fame and money. If a young rider wants to have a long and consistent career like that of Andrew Short, a good trainer can help map out a blueprint to show you how to do it. The key at that point is just minimizing mistakes and hope that someone else doesn't take you out!
I agree with Trip 100%...there is no way in hell motocross is not infected with doping and i would put money on it that 7 out of the top 10 riders in the sport are on some kind of illegal enhancers. You would be stupid and naive to think otherwise.
I've seen RX Virtual "fall on the sword" regarding PEDs...yup...he's "Gone There" even when many of us have told him to leave it alone; yet, you post this...
"Dear fans of moto, again Virtual Trainer is exhibiting the very behaviour of others PED infested sports. His tribute to dialogue and honesty are just lip service."
And this is all on top of your Baggett accusation...what an A-Hole u made of yourself: it's obvious that you're a "Real Housewives of Where-Ever" fan.
Who interviewed Blake & Aldon...AND "went there"...RIGHT THERE!?
Yup, this very same guy you accuse. Idiot.
So, I think what I'm really tryin to say is you're so far off base that you simply look & sound like an angry lil biotch w/ some issues of your own.
Please, feel free to GFY & GAFC.
I'm jus' sayin'...
@teamgreen, I have never said anything about Baggett, where did you get that from??
Anyway, the interviews you mentioned are the ones I'm talking about... the "recycled" answers. They are the classic answers given by people who've been busted. Look at the Armstrong camp. Baker is giving he same answers...
"I wouldn’t be surprised if there were guys using drugs like that. I’ve always said that you are going to get people who look for the shortcut. Plus there is so much money involved in the sport now, and the pressure to succeed is great."
This is an answer we've all heard before, in many other sports who have serious doping issues: "it's not me, it's the other guys". And Aldon Baker then goes on to downplay the actual effects of the drug, knowing full well that research indicates these PEDs increase cardio and recovery time significantly.
"But I hope people realize that even that will only get you so far, because you still have to be able to ride the bike. Hopefully that is the equalizing factor. I mean, you could put me on whatever drug there is out there and I still can’t ride the dang thing!"
...and in the VT interview with Stewart and Baker, he makes the same faulty "it doesn't work for SX" argument; but then negates it by saying it's a problem if a competitor uses it... Obviously Aldon (like any intelligent person) has his media training on lock, and his talking points clear. But we've seen it all before, play out the exact same way, with the exact same cycling acquaintances:
"I remember even when I was with Ricky that that was the word on the street. And that was pretty disappointing because you think, Gosh the amount of work and effort that go into it and then that's what people think. You know aside from that you still have to be able to ride a motorcycle and have technique and skill. And maybe from James' point of view at this stage he knows he has that skill and ability and now he is putting in the hard work and getting the results. But even when I was with Ricky we started to analyze like well what happens if you have another guy that also has that ability and technique but he is not prepared to do the work and wants to cheat? Then you have a problem."
...and the thing is, despite what VT says, it's not even cheating because the AMA doesn't test for it.
...jus' sayin' jus sayin'
And yes, Trip Carlyle is Jesus. Separate accounts, but today used by the same guy. It's a security thing. :)
Trip or Jesus - I hear what you are saying and it is certainly within your right as a fan to point fingers and make accusations.
MX is a weird sport. Every 10 years or so a rider comes along who can win without a huge amount of effort or training. Robert, Tripes, Lechien, Bayle, etc.
Those are the exceptions though and even they would have benefited from some coaching to deal with the mental aspects of the sport. Everyone else though needs a trainer. In fact the 3 winningest riders of the last 10 years have all employed the same trainer, at least when they were at the peak of their winning.
Sure, Fred, some guys that are 18 could probably come out and ride and win, at least for a little while, but given the money on the line, the injury rate, the career longevity of riders who train and those who don't, not using a trainer seems like a really stupid thing to do.
Btw, my suspicion is that lots of riders have tried and/or use ped's. at the very least to help recover from injury and tough races. Why wouldn't they? They are proven to work and the AMA is a joke.