Rapid ReaXtion: Two Stroke Class at Loretta's
Thursday, December 1, 2011 | 3:00 PM
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PrintMX Sports has announced the Supplemental Rules and Classes for the 2012 Red Bull AMA Amateur National Championship at Loretta Lynn Ranch. Click HERE to read them. The biggest news is a new Two-Stroke (16+) class, which will pit fast riders on two-strokes for the first time in a long time. The class is open for A, B, or C riders, all you have to do is qualify, ride a two-stroke, and be older than 16 (and the Schoolboy 1 (12-16) class, still dominated by two-strokes, remains for younger riders remains).
Finally, two-strokes are back! Or are they? Our staff weighs in. Be sure to add your thoughts n the comments section below.
Jason Weigandt:
I've been told this a million times: If you think you're the only one who is not crazy, well, you're the crazy one. So call me crazy. I keep marching out a theory that no one seems to agree with, but I keep banging the drum. Here goes:
If you're an OEM, and you're building four-stroke street bikes, ATVs, lawnmowers, UTVs, boats, leaf blowers and everything else, why would you want to invest R&D resources in a highly-competitive racing field, where you have to update products every year, just to sell a few thousand MX bikes? Doesn't it make much better financial sense from an engineering standpoint to keep two-stroke MX bikes down and keep the four-strokes in business? I fear that deep, deep inside, companies that make MX bikes don't want to see two strokes make a comeback.
No one agrees with me on this theory. And I have no sources to back this. But still, did you know the original YZ400M works bike was based on taking a cylinder off of a four-cylinder, four-stroke roadrace bike? Did you know all of the 450 MX bike engines have spawned 450 four-stroke ATVs?
With my nutball theory in mind, I don't think this new class will change the big picture for the sport. Sorry, until the OEMs want to allow two-strokes back to the top, nothing is going to change to make it happen.
But that's the big picture. In the small picture of this one class, at one race, it will be awesome. Two-strokes sound awesome, and since everyone loves 'em, you'll see nothing but smiles once these motos take off.
But, unlike so many of the other classes at Loretta's, I don't think this one shows the way of the future.
Steve Matthes:
Run for the hills, the two-strokes are coming back! Well back to Loretta Lynn’s anyways and for me, this is a cool thing. It’s good to give the people who still mix their gas somewhere to race. There’s no denying that in recent years, people are rediscovering their love for the ring-a-dingers and now they have their own little championship to contest and everything.
In this day and age of people putting out press releases touting their Vet World Titles won at Glen Helen, a new amateur class that is two-stroke only will definitely get the “professional” amateur title hunters out for blood. I can see these classes being very popular among the vets of the world, no doubt about it.
With KTM the only OEM still very active in R&D on their two-strokes, maybe the starting line becomes a shade bit too much orange and gets the other OEM’s thinking and maybe putting out a 250 two-stroke or updating the one they have. Competition is always good, it’s what gets the blood pumping and new ideas coming out.
I’m also looking forward to seeing what people drag out of their sheds and what’s the oldest bike there and how cherry some of them are. I can see it now, some old pro shows up in the A class on a mint Kawasaki KX500 and smokes the field which then gets every local Craigslist’s overrun with people searching for the mighty 500’s.
And then maybe Jeff Stanton comes back to try and reclaim that one title that always escaped him and then maybe his old mechanic Dan Betley goes into storage and dusts off Jeff’s 1994 CR500 and then maybe that gets Mike Larocco seething (the last 500cc MX champion and therefore defending champion) and he decides to line up to make sure he remains the top 500cc rider in the country and then maybe David Thorpe sees this and he gets mad and then…
BRING BACK THE 500’s NOW!!!!!!!
Aaron Hansel:
If you think there are a lot of squids at your local motocross track these days, think back to when two-strokes dominated the dirt. It seemed like every ten minutes someone was high-siding in a gentle turn, or looping out on a double right out of a corner. If you don’t remember those days, you’ll just have to trust me. I was after all, a big part of that carnage (not my fault, I rode a ‘97 CR250), and the only reason I could afford to keep riding was because I worked in a motorcycle shop and got a deal on the parts I was breaking every weekend.
Then, along came the four-stroke. With its abundant and predictable power, the squid factor decreased rapidly, almost overnight, and it seemed like just about everyone I knew that was making the jump to four-strokes was getting fast all of a sudden. I swam against the current for as long as I could, but when I found myself bailing off my KX250 in midair after a particularly nasty loop out at Riverfront Park in Nor-Cal (it’s never a good idea to ride “one more lap”), I decided it was time to add some strokes to my life.
Since making the switch to four-strokes, I don’t get tired as quickly, my lap times are much lower and I don’t crash nearly as often, although the guys I ride with might find that last one hard to believe. Here’s my point: For motocross, supercross and arenacross types of racing, the four-stroke engine configuration is superior. It delivers easier to use, predictable power, and unless the rules governing displacement change, it will always be the king of horsepower in its respective class.
When the rules were written defining CC limits of two-stroke and four-strokes, four-stroke technology was nowhere near what it was today, and when the manufacturers (namely Yamaha) decided to start taking advantage of the rule, the four-bangers had an advantage, almost right out of the gate. The only way I see two-strokes making a major comeback is if the AMA drastically changes the rules at the pro level to give two-strokes the same CC advantage that four-strokes currently enjoy. For example, allowing 250 two-strokes to race with four-stroke 250s. With the amount of research and development the manufacturers currently have tied up in their current bikes however, major rule changes like this on the pro scene are highly unlikely. Don’t be sad two-stroke lovers, you’ve still got nostalgia and woods racing, and now, you at least have a brand new class at Loretta Lynn’s!
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I love the smell of pre-mix (exhaust) in the morning.
Now if they can just get rid of the C classes. LOL Motocross may be the only sport in the world where the same adult can be called a beginner and called a national champion. Why don't we call it the "lives places with no or weak AMA presence" champ.
I know a lot of people will complain if it happens, but I think it would be cool if some old pros came out of the woodwork for this class.
the c class guys who race loretta's are far from beginners. you dont ever see the local c guys at a national
Can't wait fot them to bring two strokes back !. Have never been a four stroke guy, and never will be.
Just the mere fact that most people are lazy, are not going to race a 2 stroke, and with technology improving the 4 strokes why go backwards. Let's all just get a donkey and a trailer for transportation.
2 strokes are for homos
Last i checked C class was Novice..... Not beginner. And yes this class is fubar full of B class sandbaggers.
I do think they need a "first time competitor" class for those who have never experienced LL's This class would have to be regulated by the area qualifiers, keep the C riders from sandbaggin it to death aswell.
I ride a 250 smoker and love it. I don't care what you ride. Bring back the days of 90 points moved you up to intermediate and then 180 moved you to A. Sandbaggers are the losers.
I agree,get rid of the C classes.when I started racing there was A and B class,we had full gates 30-40 riders.You really had to earn a trophy.Kenworthy's had 60-80 B riders and they would run two separate B classes.Now you have all the these guys running C and sometimes D class which leaves the B class with only a few riders.We even have an 80 extra class.? You also would not have to wait so long between motos.It is more fun with full gates and a good finish is more satisfying.
@MXrider874,..2 strokes are for homo's ? Curious of how old you are?....
Most people I know on thumpers have said they are lazy riders now and got out of the sport because of the cost! I've always said go back to two-strokes and have fun again, 99% of us racers are not top 20 at nationals or supercross......I myself never wanted a 60HP fuel injected, programmable jet that I couldn't afford! I must quote Mitch Payton here....( since the 4-stroke has entered the scene my racing budget quadrupled ).... Riding a 2005 YZ125 in the Int 30+ & 40+ class is a lot of fun when you beat guys on a 450 that they have 10 K into it.....mine was 1500.... .bucks...and the frustration I see of my fellow racers when they try and sell that thumper....OUCH!! You can have affordable racing and fun go back to two strokes and have fun!
Seems like a good place for some of the smaller Euro brands to showcase thier goods.
To little to late.They should of done this years ago.LL kept the four stroke class for years.Even though everone was racing 4 strokes they still had the 4stoke class.AT least you can race a 250 2 stroke in the 250f class at LL yet hardly anyone does it.
Bob the Builder and dono35 said it exactly correct. Did you know that dirt bike sales are down 60% since 2007? That was way before the economy went south as well. It is directly a result of the big 4 not making two strokes. (Yamaha still does, but a 2012 is the same as a 2007) The AMA and FIM have ruined the sport, but they have way to big an ego to admit it. We need to bring two strokes back so the masses can afford it again. I wish Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki would grow some cahones and manufacture two-strokes again. Its ridiculous that we have to stand by and watc hthis happen. How many riders in the 250f class would be on four-strokes if they had to race against two-stroke 250's. It is not a technology issue, it is displacement issue. They are no making fuel-injected two strokes as well.
People like Kflorida are the ignorant masses that the AMA appeals to. He doesn't realize what a stupid statement that is.
This is where the 2012 Husky CR125 is gonna rock!
think about the 85% of people who own mx bikes that dont ever race. Nowadays they mostly ride late 90's to early 00's 125 and 250 2t. Now picture in ten years all those people who are now stuck riding 10 or 15 year old 250f's. And tell me how many of those bikes will still be around, running, reliable, and worth maintaining. Not very many, this is already a small sport, I don't even want to picture it in 10 or 15 years if nothing changes.
Both are great in there own way . if 2 strokes had the technology being put in and were allowed to race cc to cc i think 2 strokes would be far more powerful , lighter and better handling . theres too much regulation on what you can run . imagine a twin cylinder 2 stroke fuel injected . it would be like a ferrari . Having said that 2 strokes with new tech would cost as much as any four stroke . As of now i prefer 4 strokes as they seem more dependable and tractable . just my opinion
Dono35 - I think Mxrider874 was trying to say that homos are the smart ones, They do tend to be free thinkers.
2 strokes are lighter and more powerful.
Mxrider874, reading your post I'm guessing your around 14 years old and therefore you don't buy your own bike and probably didn't even buy the computer you used to post this. So you have no idea what the value of a dollar is. And if you are a full grown man than it's pathetic that that's all you can come up with. Have you ever even rode a full sized 2 stroke? I highly doubt it. Or maybe you have and are just to much of a goon to ride one fast. Now stop wasting everyone's time start paying attention in school that way you have something intelligent to say rather than sounding like an idiot. Not to mention the bigotry, Racer you guys need to take that down if it had a swear word in it you would, so any comment like that need to be taken down as well. I too love the smell of two strokes in the morning myself, nothing else like it. Great idea by Mx Sports and company to bring the two bangers down to the ranch.
Nevermind the cost, Nevermind the complexity, Nevermind the mfg motivations, the fact of the matter is that the four strokes just aren't as fun to ride. They're too loud, to heavy, and they just don't have that light snappy feel.
Since everyone, except maybe 50 guys, is riding for fun, and four strokes are what's sold, less and less people are riding.
While I'm at it, we went from a sport that had 40+2 brutality, to 30+2, to "easy, less tiring to ride" four strokes. I used to be proud at how tough the sport was and it is just pathetic the direction it is going. When I started racing in te early 80's every kid that was top 10 was also on the wrestling team, a boxer, ran cross country, etc.
Bring back two strokes, make the classes displacement parity, and let's see how it goes. While you're doing that, bring the 450 class back to 40+2.
@ Scarey..........please do some research on what a KTM 250cc two stroke HP is and a KTM 250F 4-stroke is!!!! (10 HP) is the difference in favor of the two stroke......
plus it's lighter, less money to operate etc.....Love everybodys input on this subject..........
Looks like its time to dust of my Service Honda CR500...so that new class doesn't have a displacement limit?
@Matthes: why do you hate 2strokes so much?
I thought 2ts / 4ts could be the same capacity in amateur racing, already?
I guess Loretta's has different rules.
Or, is this class a way for MX Sports to pull the plug on even amateur equivalency?
DC put forward that the lead law was the issue to concentrate on - well, that's been sold - congratulations to him and all the Others who worked so hard to solve that.
Time to bring in full equivalency, DC. The manufacturers Do Not make the sport - riders do. If any of them want to 'take their little red wagon and go home', let them do so. They'll only make fools of themselves.
4ts have not needed the capacity handicap given to them, for at least the last 10 years.
They'll still dominate, through weight of numbers, and they have a lot more to come, 2ts Have Not decimated the 4ts in pro level series around the world where equivalency exists.
Yes, 4ts are smoother to ride - it's not hard for them to be so, when they are allowed such a capacity advantage, and the 2ts 'allowed' to race against them have to be made so hyper, to keep with the much bigger 4ts. It's not a hard concept to grasp.
Though, that concept, seems to escape So Many industry pundits.
Jan Witeveen , in his monthly column in the sadly defunct MXDigital, put forward that 50+HP 80+mm bore std.250fs were entirely possible / likely to come out. We'll be seeing just that type of engine in Moto3, next year.
2ts - more torque and HP, at lower revs.Harder hitting.
4ts - more rev capability, gives them the ability to get the HP needed to win.Smoother.
Each has their own advantages / disadvantages - which evens things out.
50+HP 250fs won't be an easy to ride item, as a 36 /40 HP std 250f is.They'll be fairly hyper things to ride. And, rather expensive to run.
50 HP 2t - harder to ride? I guess so, if you don't ride it the way it should be. That same, 50 HP 2t, can Easily be made less hyper - in KTMs case, with power valve springs and settings, jetting, and an inexpensive pipe / muffler set up. You want even more tractability, buy a couple of different flywheel weights.
Please, DC, stop bowing to manufacturer pressure / bullying, and get rid of the ridiculous capacity rules. Same size 125 to 125 (people think 125 2ts are pipey, wait till you try riding Honda's "far superior" 125 4t, with an 18 /20 grand redline, and no torque / hp below 10 /12g. Honda surely would stick with their 4ts, wouldn't they? They are, so very devoted to 4ts) 250 vs 250, then, whatever damned capacity a manufacture / rider thought was the magic formula for open class / MX1 racing.
No, that's too logical, too fair, for it to ever happen, isn't it?
DC, I believe you truly care about the sport - that you make your living through it, in various ways, is a fine thing. You've got the power, please do something with it - it would help the sport that we all love. The bleating / manipulative manufacturers should have No part in this, especially with something as simple as capacity equivalency. If they don't want to play, let them do so. Others will step up. Racing will not cease, even at the highest levels. It has / is, growing away from their heavy involvement. A few have backed away, by their own choice, and , finally, the model of the independent teams, that the sport has so needed, is coming to the fore.
Be Brave, DC / MX Sports Pro Racing.
Honda , in particular, have been flexing their muscles after being dumped on by DMG, the Real owners of US racing. In no way do I support DMGs butchering of Road Racing, but Honda, etc, should Not be the final arbiters of race rules.
It is not about 2 strokes vs. 4 strokes. It is about how the AMA and MX Sports can get more people to go to Lorettas to spend more money to put in their pockets. Yes 2 strokes are cheaper to run and own, but they are adding classes to get more riders to Lorettas. What has MX Sports done for the average racer, but make it more expensive to race at their events.
I would love to buy a 2012 KTM250SX 2-stroke, but they are sold out, and that is a very odd statment for me to make. I was the 1999 Distric 5 PA State champion in the 4-Stroke Bike Class. I raced a 1998 YZ400F, a bike that I couldnt wait to buy. I raced that thing all over the PA, OH, MD and WV areas it was a great bike to race. But you had to plan ahead, it would take me weeks of overtime pay to afford to rebuild that thing. And the day it dropped a valve was a very sad time.
I parked the bike, bought a new 2001 CR250 and raced it for a few seasons. I feel in love with the 2-stroke again. The snappy power out of the turns, the light feel in the air. The way the suspenion finaly worked the way it should without having to see Pro Action every few weeks because the bike weighed so much. I was faster on the 2-stoke then i ever was on the 400F. I even moved from B-class to A.
Then as time went on I bought anouther 4-stroke, a new 450F. A bike that I hated, spent so much money trying to make it right that I could have bought two new 2-strokes and still have monvey left over. Then I tried to sell it, and no one wanted the stupid thing. So I put it on a stand in my garage and it still sits there today. I stopped racing and only trail rode a few months each year because of it.
I got back into racing after I bought a used a 2005 YZ250 2-stroke and use the YZ450F as a place to hang my riding gear.
Bring back the 250 2-Strokes and watch the gates fill up again. Even if it is just for Vet class, that a good enough place to start for me!
The class definitions are definitely different between LL and the "standard" AMA Amateur rules. You can race a 250TS in the 250 class locally (if the district follows the AMA standards), but I'm pretty sure that is not the case at LL.
I hadn't looked at the AMA rules book for a while and found an interesting change to the definition of C class. It used to say something about having less than 1 year worth of racing experience lifetime (20 year breaks didn't count), could have never participated at LL National (even youth classes), and more or less said that this is for people just starting to race. Now the definition is "the class preceding B". Very telling. No wonder you see local A classes with 2 riders and the same division may have big gates in C and B.
By and large, I like what MX Sports has done for the sport, both at the pro and amateur levels, but I have to agree with Flea. It's all about getting more riders at the qualifiers. I'm not sure that's a bad thing, though. Local promoters are the life blood of the sport. If more and more of them go under, the sport would suffer.
@Stire517 - I have a friend who bought a new 250SX on like Tuesday. they needed to order now, and they have to wait til february, but they were able to get one - the shipments for december and january are goneskis. Bought it through TNT cycles in Utica NY if that helps.
Certainly not easy to give your money away for one of these things. But hey I'm sure you can have your pick of any of the last 3 model years of 4 strokes :-)
Schoolboy 1 (12-16) B/C
Schoolboy 2 (13-16) B/C
Am I missing something??
I think this is great. Maybe a little late, But none the less it's happening. I would be curious to hear the real reasoning behind MXSports decision as to why now was a good time to try and make this happen. Anywho - I was kinda pushed out of the sport with a broken neck in 2001 - While in FL training for the Daytona SX. Yes - Believe it or not I did have a pro card.. This was about the time the 250F was hitting the scene - So I bought one. Funny thing was that I actually decided to ride the 125 more often then not. After 10 years off of a MX bike - 8 years of RoadRacing - 6 years at the AMA Superbike level - I am now making plans to high tail it home from competing in the Daytona 200 this coming season to switch my Yami YZ250 from an Ice setup to MX for the area qualifiers.... This has renewed my drive a bit... I can't speak for anyone else - But I'm stoked!!!! I love every aspect of the 2 stroke - Heck I still wish we ran 2 strokes roadracing... I suppose that is something to look at as well - 2 strokes are a cult thing in the RR world now. We still own 3 TZ 250's - Don't get them out as often as we would like tho. AMA did everything but ban 2 stroke owners from entering the paddock in the U.S. It had a huge impact on 2 stroke development and production. Now take a look at the FIM - 2011 was the last season of 2 stroke 125GP racing. All Moto GP classes have been switched to 4 strokes....
Enough outta me - But a big thank you to MXSports. Hopefully see you down at LL..
62 qualifiers for LL. And they'll probably add more.
I can say this as a big fan of the sport 2stroke or 4 whatever u like and can afford that's all a personal choice. I was there last year at lorreta's watching the racing and when they launched the schoolboy 2 class with just 125 2 strokes a smile was on every ones face that was around us. excitement filled the air and on that first lap when 40+ bikes came plowing by us that was freakin awsome. U could tell that the crowd loved it and was way more into the race. throughout the whole race it was a closer harder fought race. and that's what it is going to take to build the sport and the fan base.
ScottyRyan - 3x TZ 2fiddies? share the love around man!
I got a 91 RS125 which is eligible for period 6 historic racing back in Australia. Rode it twice before I moved out here. Mothballed. If only I could get 6" removed from my legs and maybe 100lb of flab off I may be able to ride it. My RGV is a little more roomy!
Proud to say I am on bike number 9 (bought my first in 2005) and every one has been a stinker.
The EPA has alot to do with it also.They want all 2 strokes gone.As of Jan. !st you can't buy a 2 stroke watercraft and thats just the beginning.The factories don't want to invest in something they won't be able to sell.
Of course that's how it is. MX sports will never take responsibility for their part in ruining motocross. Prop up pro nationals and LL and damn the rest.
Delete away!!!! DC get a clue!
Lets just make tennis balls bigger,,, lets make golf balls a half-inch larger... lets make the pockets on pool tables wider too.. so all the participants in these sports can enjoy the ephemeral feeling of being great at it.. Four-strokes are great starting devices but now that everyone has one, they are just expensive liabilities to the racer AND the sport... Oh wait, I meant 'holeshot' fork starting devices.. well come to think of it that thing sucks too! DC wants MOTO to be as accepted as college basketball or something.. I don't get it.. or he is simply bought by the 'board of directors'..... of AMA racing etc......
I'm glad lorettas has the class, to run this class. Heres my worthless nobody take on the 2 vrs 4 thing. My parents didnt buy my bikes back when I rode. They never bought 1 part, ever, I did, by bagging groceries , mowing lawns anything else, ( even worked in migrant fields to buy parts gas whatever). This was all before the child labor laws. I started paying ssi when I was 12. Played pee wee football, little league baseball, then on to high school sports and was pretty good,. But nothing topped winning motocross races. I joined the usmc just to race w/ the fellas from california, (dont believe your recruiter), Motocross racing, gave me the confidence to do whatever I chose, becouse I knew nothing could be tougher than the last few laps of a hard fought moto. It has served me well, all my life, How many other kids are out there, that won't get that? Nope I couldnt beat Alan King on my best day, but I sure try like hell, how many wont get this thrill becouse of, 9.000 bike, then gear, then maintain it? w/o mom or dads help? I wonder aloud?
@Bear. What you read about 50= hp 250 four strokes is BS.Those motors are going to be limited to 14000 rpm.Each team only gets to use 8 engines for the whole series. That means 2 races per engine.Those engines are huge as well.Do the math dude a 14000 rpm 250 will never make 50 hp.
Fred:
The point about 50 HP 250s, was made About MXers. As I said, by Jan Witteveen - one of The greats in MC engines. If you saw pictures of the launch of Athena's DI 2t design, you'll see him at the end of the table, nearest to the Minarelli engine with the Athena top end.
He's most noted for his 2t work, he has been a large part of Cagiva's and then, Aprilia's GP race teams, over the years, from the 2ts through to the Cube. And, I think, involved in KTMs road race 2t efforts, for a time.
He's more involved in 2ts, so he has no axe to grind in putting 4ts on a pedestal.
There is no problem in making 50+ HP 250 4ts. Though they won't be cheap to build, nor cheap to run.
Check the specs on Honda's NSF250R road race bike - it has 47.6hp (achieved at 13000rpm, in their specs.), and it's a customer version, with only a 78mm piston. And the Max piston size is 81mm. I know the rev limit, I Know the rules.. The top teams in MX2 GPs, US 250s, are rumoured as getting 45 +HP from engines that, when compared to Moto3 units, are like putting an XR250 against the current 250f MX engines.
The Customer NSF 250R, does not comply with Moto3 rules, as the rules state 'prototype 'chassis, Not production chassis. This was with the 7th November rules. Honda may bring their power to bare, yet on that. Honda may also have specific Moto3 Engines, well above the spec of the production NR250. If they don't, or don't offer a homologated 'power up" kit, they will be slaughtered by the other engine producers.
The engines Are Not Huge - do you know how small 125GP bikes are? Well, the Moto3 bikes are that size. The engines Are Deep, because of high cranks and deep sumps. I've seen a mock up Honda engine, and it's a small little thing. 125 GP bikes were hitting just on / over 60HP, in the top teams, this year. Pull your head out of the sand, and see what's happening. I can do math pretty well, with my engineering qualifications, and, though I'm a 2t rider by preference, I've little doubt as to how much HP a 4t engine that is, effectively 1 cylinder of a 1000cc Moto GP bike, that are expected to be delivering 250+HP, at a very conservative estimate, will easily get over 50HP, Even with the rule restrictions on them.
My opinion, with all racing, is that 2ts and 4ts should be the same capacity, full stop. And, if Dorna were serious about making the 'entry level' GP road racing class affordable, they should have either introduced control rules to 125s, or have control rules that allowed 250 2t, and 250 4t singles to go head to head.
I guarantee you'll see someone put one of the Moto3 engines in a dirt chassis, next year. There's plenty of people with the money to buy an NSF250R, sell the rolling chassis, and put it into a 250f MX chassis. It would probably cost less to do that, than hand over your check book to PC, and get the most full on engine they would sell to the public. Or buy a Moto 3 engine, from a supplier. Hell, they would probably jump at the chance of selling an engine, for more than the 12,000 Euro they are held to for Moto 3 use. The only limiting factor, is whether the sump can be cut down, and a remote tank/ pump can be substituted. Gearing? The 2 Extra ratios allowed for each gear, should enable the easy formation of a dirt suitable gearbox. I've already had a fellow contact me, asking if I'd be willing to do a conversion for him. If he's got the money, and the engine, I'll not knock a chance like that, back.
@bear those motors would not be legal in AMA pro MX or SX.I just do not beleive a 13 or 14000 rpm 250f motors can make 50+ hp.Those motors would probably have to double the rpm to get that kind of power.I think those figures that you are reading are very exaggrated.You do have a point though,thay are claiming that a lot of 1000cc production bikes are making close to 185 hp at the crank.I'm sorry I just don't believe it I for sure don,t believe 125cc 2s with 60 hp.I thought that the KTM motor is the only motor going to be used in moto3 so honda has nothing to do with that class.
Fred:
Off course they are not legal in AMA racing.
I use them as an example of what is coming with 4t development.Current 250Fs are far from what 4ts can end up as. But, I repeat, They won't be cheap, and they may be costly to run. The one factor that makes me think that they may not be too outrageous in cost / cost to run, is the HP figure in the NSR250Rs specs - this is on a customer bike, touted by Honda as being their take on a bike for the road racing masses, to 'grow' the sport, so they will have made a hell of an effort to make it not be a ticking time bomb. And, that HP level is with an enormous, under engine muffler, as the bike will Have to be quiet enough to use at the average Road Race circuit, which have noise limits. Moto3 GP class bikes, will have a 115Dba limit, so they straight away, will have little constraint on exhaust restriction , other than the banning of 'in exhaust power valves', from my recollection.
Educate yourself. Look up the specs for the Honda NSF250R. They are not hard to find.
Look around the internet for dyno charts on Aprilia RSA and RSW 125s. There's a one from a few years ago that shows 54/56HP, from an RSW, if I recall corectly. And that wasn't on a Factory Team engine.
Believe what you like, if that is what you need to do. Or, do some research and have your eyes opened.
That you seem to think that Moto3 is being limited to the KTM motor shows you need to broaden your horizons, and learn what is out there.
The Moto3 class, thankfully, has not become a 'Honda', nor a 'KTM' class. There are a few engine suppliers entering the class, despite the initial requirement of all manufacturers having to be prepared to suplly as many as 15 teams, the 8 engines per year.
Some sense has been seen, in that the minimum amount of engines that a New manufacturer to the 125 /Moto3 class, does not have to provide 15 teams engines. Only manufacturers who have have recent involvement in GPs.
Please take this, not as my abusing you, but encouraging you to know what IS happening.
I've written all of this, as a person who is Disgusted by the longstanding, current, dreadful rules, that exist in both AMA and FIM MX top levels.
How many people know, that the rules for the 2010 MX2 season , that were published in 2009, put 250 2ts back in, against the 250 4ts?
That rule, after pressure from ?????, "dissapeared"
I've ridden bikes since the sixties, off all types, both 2t and 4t. My current rides, for the last 8 years, have been on 2ts. And, I see myself on 2ts till I stop riding. Especially, as finally, we are seeing 2t improvements come through. Improvements, that question the viability of 4t useage, in All forms of ICE powered vehicles.
So please, DC, and MX Sports, MX Sports Pro Racing, and whatever other names your companies operate under, Stop being controlled / influenced by manufacturers, and Do Something That Will Really Help The Sport.
Bring in Equivalency. The 4ts will not be decimated. Don't forget just how long it really took for the 4ts to dominate, after the 98 winning of the 250 class on a 400 (well, badged as a 400) 4t. It wasn't an instant transition, as so many think it was. Neither will it be 2t domination , in just one season.
To be at the head of the rule changes, that brought sanity and fairness to racing, at the start of what I see as quite a revolution in ICE usage, would be a great legacy, one that I'm sure DC senior would be proud of, on top of all that you, and your family, co-workers have already achieved, DC.
@bear.Its my understanding that in Moto3 all the bikes in that class will have to use that KTM spec motor.Just like in moto 2 all the rider used that 600cc Honda spec motor. There might be Hondas and Yamahas in moto 2 but they will be using that KTM spec. motor.As far as HP of 250f.I'm saying that a 250 f that is only turning 13 or 14,000 rpm will never ever be able to make 50+hp.It could if it was tubro or supercharged.
Fred:
Your on the computer - check the Moto 3 rules, It will take a minute or so. Your understanding is very wrong. Not checking, and believing you've got it right, does not make it so.
As I said, also check the NSR250R specs. You'll see the HP and Torque figures. And customer road race specs, that I've seen checked, are very accurate. What you're saying you believe, has little to do with what Is being done, with 4ts.
Do some research - there's a lot happening out there. You'll learn a lot.
Chase up 250 4t Kart Engines - there are quite a few out there, These mainly seem to share a 78mm piston, and a 32mm DellOrto carb - I've not found the rules and regulations, but I assume those must be part of the regulations for Karts, to keep costs down. Each company, shows between 33 / 37KW, (I think that's the highest claim I found, months ago) as a claimed power figure. To convert KW to HP, multiply KW by 1.341 Yes, it appears that it is at the counter shaft, that has no gearbox preceding it, but that is an impressive figure for use of a low spec carb, and they also appear to have a low rev limit too - 13 / 13.5 K RPM.
As you said yourself, when we have Production, Road legal bikes like the BMW 1000 putting out 192HP, at the rear wheel, in independent dyno tests,consistently ,it's not hard to see how a far less civilized 250 4t , even with a 14K rev ceiling, will get over 50 HP. So, 4ts will not be destroyed by the 2ts, but it will cost a bit to do so.
Equivalency, is long overdue. There are no valid reasons / excuses to not make a simple rule change.
@Bear,I guess I was just assuming Moto3 was going to use a single brand[KTM] spec. engine like mot2 did last year.It does look like there will be more than one brand.You almost have me convinced 250f 's can have 50 hp.I'll been thinking about this one for weeks.Hahaha!!!